doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Another passing fad

I doubt you will get a cogent reply to that question, Shotgunjones. After all, "we" are a lot reticent to admit our "wussiness".

I'm 6'3" and 230 pounds of pure flab. I find a 3 dram 1 1/8oz standard target load tolerable if need be, but I surely prefer a 1 ounce load for a day of clays. Call me a wussy.

My pheasant load is a standard 1 1/4 at 1260 by the chrono. Recoil is overshadowed by the effectiveness of that traditional load and I don't shoot 50 of them. If I were to, a modern O/U with some heft would be my choice.

Let's compare with a standard online recoil calculator....

My load 26.5gr. WSF, 1260 fps, 1 1/4oz shows 25.5 FP free recoil energy. I'd call that a 3 1/2 Dr. EQ. load wouldn't you? This is calculated in a 8.4 pound O/U.

The above mentioned bulk smokeless load with 46 gr. of powder shows, in a 7 1/2 pound gun, 35.7 FP free recoil.

Now assuming that really IS a 3 1/2 Dr. EQ load, the difference is 10.2 FP or 40% more than my modern load. To equal the modern load in FRE, the bulk smokeless load would have to be slowed to 1,000 FPS.

I'm not calling you a wussy, SJ. I was referring to today's shooters in general, as compared to yesteryear's. They regularly shot tons of heavy loads.

I agree with you. I can shoot 1 1/8 oz. loads all day, literally, in a 9 lb. gun. But, I stay way from anything heavier than 1 1/8 oz. stuff in sub-8 lb. guns, and those will be at 1200 or less.

G.T. Teasdale-Buckell, Experts on Guns and Shooting, 1900
https://books.google.com/books?id=P7UrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA235
1 1/8 oz. load comparisons. Pressure converted used Burrard’s formula
42 gr. = 3 Dram Bulk Nitro – 1” chamber pressure 7,985 psi / Muzzle Velocity 1208 fps (modern standard is measured at 3 feet and is 1200 fps; usually 50 -70 fps less than MV)
45 1/2 gr. = 3 1/4 Dram – 9,730 psi / MV 1,274 fps (standard 1255 fps)
49 gr. = 3 1/2 Dram – 11,780 psi / 1,328 fps (standard 1300 fps)

Tod Sloan at the Live Bird traps. Looks like he was at risk of losing his trousers
His gun and load at the 1901 GAH at Live Birds were a W&C Scott & Son with 1 1/8 oz and 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. DuPont Bulk

This mystified me too, Shotgunjones... until I saw your subsequent post. I initially found it hard to believe that a mere 20-24 gr. increase in ejecta weight would generate 25-30% more recoil... all else being equal.

Then I saw that your calculation for the modern smokeless load was done for an 8.4 lb. gun, and the calculation for the bulk smokeless load was done for a gun nearly a full pound lighter. You did not provide the velocity for the bulk smokeless load. Do the math for guns of equal weight and loads of equal velocity, and the difference in recoil won't be nearly as much.

Live action Pigeon competition showing the effect of 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. loads.
Check out the histrionics of the fella at 20 sec., who then missed the bird



Interesting how some guns appear to recoil straight back, and others with significant muzzle jump.

That guy mounts the gun, it seems, on his chest rather than shoulder pocket. He’s also looking down on the rib. Wonder if he shot over the bird?

Drew, As an aside, and being an old-time W.&C. Scott collector, I find it very interesting that 5 of the 15 guns used in this contest were Scott guns. Regards, Sandlapper

Until about 1895 the primary guns chosen by Live Bird competitors were British; and mostly Scott guns

Jan., 1879 The Chicago Field
Jamaica Plank Rd., L.I., New York
Brooklyn Gun Club vs. Philadelphia Gun Club, 8 guns per side. Only two Parker guns on the grounds. Mr. T.E. Broadway of the Brooklyners used a Parker 10 ga. with close choke weighing 9 1/2 lbs shooting 4 1/2 drachms of DuPont's Diamond Grade and 1 1/4 oz of Tatham's soft shot. For the Philly club, Mr. H.A. Burroughs shot a Parker 12 bore with medium choke weighing but 7 lb 14oz. He shot 4 drachms of Hazard's Electric Powder and 1 1/4 oz. of chilled #7 in the left barrel and #8 in the right.
W&C Scott was the choice for most shooters with a pair of Remingtons and a Moore and a Williams & Powell.

February 23, 1895 Sporting Life
Keystone Crow Shoot
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/55021/rec/8
1 1/4 oz. loads
Mott shot a Greener gun with 48 grs. E.C. powder.
Bergner shot a LeFever gun with 48 grs. E.C. powder.
Jones used a Clabrough gun with 48 grs. E.C. powder.
Leonard shot a Wesley Richards gun with 45 grs. E.C. powder.
W.H. Wolstencroft shot a Francotte gun and 48 grs. American Wood Powder.
Budd used a Parker gun and 52 grs. E.C. powder.
Landis shot an L.C. Smith gun with 48 grs. E.C. pow­der.
Thurman used an L.C. Smith gun with 50 grs. American Wood Powder.
Leaming shot an L.C. Smith gun with 48 grs. E.C. powder.
Isaac Wolstencroft shot a Greener gun with 52 grs. Schultz powder.
Davids used an L.C. Smith gun and 47 grs. E.C. powder.
Edwards shot a Cla­brough gun and 48 grs. E.C. powder.
James Wolstencroft shot a Greener gun and 50 grs. E.C. powder.
Ed Hill used an L.C. Smith gun, 10 bore, and 52 grs. E.C. powder.
Zweilin used an L.C. Smith gun and 48 grs. E.C. powder.
Morfey shot a Greener gun with 49 grs. E.C. powder.
Rothacker used a Colt's gun with 56 grs. (4 Dr. Eq.) Schultz powder.
Hothersoll shot an L.C. Smith gun with 50 grs. Amer­ican Wood Powder.
W. M. Pack shot a Greener gun with 52 grs. Schultz powder.
(Capt. A.W.) Money shot a Greener gun with 49 grs. E.C. powder.
W. H. Pack shot a Fran­cotte gun with 50 grs. Schultz.
Treadway used a Greener gun with 48 grs. E.C. powder.

c. 1895 Grains = Dram Equivalence
(by 1900 “E.C.” and “Schultze” were equivalent at 14 grains/dram)
…………..“E.C.”…..”Schultze”
3 Dr. Eq……44………..42
3 1/4……….45.5………45
3 1/2……….49………..48
3 3/4……….53………..51

Is the change in guns due to the tariffs added to imported items?