doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Another passing fad

Sporting Life July 1, 1883



Guns at the Riverton Handicap March 8, 1895
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/54954
“It may be interesting to some to note the guns and loads used, and we give it below. It was a lamentable fact that of the 15 guns used only one American make was represented. This was a special pigeon gun of the Parker Brothers' manufacture, and was a beautiful weapon in every way, and was owned by Mr. Post, whose score of 93 on a hard lot of birds did not show that the shooting power was lacking.”
“All the guns were 12 gauge, and it was noticeable that not a full pistol-grip stock was among the number, and most of them were the straight-grip ‘pigeon gun’ model, nine being of this description, and six of the half-grip style. All were of the hammerless pattern excepting two; Mr. Welch and Mr. Robbing using hammer guns.”
Guns and loads used:
Capt. A.W. Money - Greener, 7 1/2 pounds.
George Work - Purdey, 7 1/2 pounds.
Post - Parker pigeon gun (AAH introduced in 1894)), 7 11-16 pounds.
Jim Jones - Scott, 7 3-16 pounds.
John B. Ellison - Scott, 7 1/4 pounds.
Fred Moore - Purdey, 7 7-16 pounds.
Leonard - Westley Richards, 7 1/2 pounds.
Mott - Crown grade Greener, 7 2-16 pounds.
J.S. Robbins - Greener hammer gun, 7 1/2 pounds.
R. Welch - Purdey hammer gun, 7 1/2 pounds
Downing - Scott, 7 6-16 pounds.
J.K. Palmer – Francotte, 7 1/2 pounds.
Edwards - Scott Premier, 7 pounds.
J. Wolstencroft - Greener, 6 15-16 pounds.
Eckert - Scott Premier, 7 1/4 pounds.
Shells were 45 - 49 grains (3 1/4 - 3 1/2 drams) smokeless powder and 1 1/4 oz. shot.
Capt. Money (2nd in the 1894 GAH) and George Work (3rd in the 1893 GAH) tied at 94 killed.

Interesting that people could afford Purdey's and Greener's and that they used 1 1/4 oz of shot. Today we would call that an express load or magnum. I'm surprised there was not a 10 gauge thrown in there as well.

Weight limits were being established by the mid-1890s, which likely put the end to 10g guns in competition. Shot was limited to 1 1/4 oz. for both 10g and 12g so no advantage to 10g

At the First DuPont Grand Smokeless Championship Handicap Live-bird Tournament October 1895 all guns were 8 pounds or less, and the usual load was 1 1/4 oz. shot with 3 1/2 Dr.Eq. Bulk Smokeless powder. Gauge was not listed but it is assumed all were 12g.
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/53099/rec/2

The 1898 GAH at Live Birds limited guns to 8# 'naked' ie the barrel guard and 'recoil boot' were not counted

Drew
The 10s might pattern the 1 1/4oz load better than the 12s. 1 1/4oz was the original 10 gauge load, 1 1/8oz was the standard 12 gauge load.

My own belief is that a guy would have to pattern both to find out, but, it is possible, if not likely.

Best,
Ted

1890 American Shooting Association Rules handicapped based on gauge
https://archive.org/stream/fieldcovertrapsh01boga#page/458/mode/2up
No limit on powder
In single bird (target) shooting the rise shall be:
Eighteen yards for ten-bore guns; limit 1 1/4 oz.
Sixteen yards for twelve-bore guns; limit 1 1/8 oz.
Fourteen yards for fourteen and sixteen bore guns; limit 1 oz.
Thirteen yards for twenty-bore guns; limit 7/8 oz.
In double-target shooting the rise shall be:
Sixteen yards for ten-bore guns.
Fourteen yards for twelve-bore guns.
Twelve yards for fourteen and sixteen bore guns.
Eleven yards for twenty-bore guns.
Rules for Live Bird Shooting - same load limitations
The rise shall be:
Thirty yards for ten-bore guns.
Twenty-eight yards for twelve-bore guns.
Twenty-six yards for fourteen and sixteen bore guns.
Twenty-five yards for twenty-bore guns.

The 1892 American Shooting Association Rules allowed 1 1/4 oz. for both 10g and 12g and did away with the yardage differences.

So back to those new-fangled hammerless doubles destined for failure

The First Anson & Deeley Hammerless was patented 11th May 1875

U.S. manufacturers 1st (please correct me if mistaken)
Lefever - 1878 - side cocking hammerless patented 1880
Colt - 1883
Smith - 1886
Parker - 1889
Baker - A & B 1892 & Boxlock C 1895
Remington - 1894
In 1895 Crescent introduced the boxlock Triumph Hammerless, based on patents issued to Frederick Beesley and controlled by Charles Lancaster. Crescent's sidelock No. 6 was introduced in 1904

These guys were some tough old bastards.

Light guns, big loads. The kids today (me included) would be battered and bruised by a day of this.

My hat is off to them.

Of course, they needed the loads because of the lack of a shot wrapper and what today we would consider 'promo load' shot quality, if even that.

Those "big loads" with the bulk or dense smokeless powders of the day were at lower velocity than most all of today's loads and even in a big shoot like the GAH you would only fire at most 50 shells at your 25 birds, likely spread over two days. More time spent placing bets than actually shooting.

Then why are they calling it a 3 1/2 dr. eq. load?

It was always my understanding this was equivalent velocity, 3 drams being 1200 fps.

Another consideration before comparing recoil of vintage loads with modern loads would be the weight of powder.

45-49 grains of bulk smokeless vs 22-25 modern powder grains for a 'super pigeon' load would seem to push the recoil, as calculated by a computer recoil calculator, well into the 'ouch' zone.

It's not a great increase in ejecta weight, but that's all transformed into gas at a much higher velocity..... thus the recoil increase as shown by the computer of 25-30%.

If I'm missing something, what is it?