doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Shooting Sportsman Article

WR makes a good point. If you can afford their guns, then you can also afford more expensive nontoxic options than steel.

You are correct Larry.

Shooting a few hundred rounds of bismuth is an insignificant cost when shooting driven game on the estates that require no lead ammunition.
Modern copper plated bismuth cartridges are great ammunition.

I shot three days on driven grouse this fall, where non lead was required, doublegunning, shot about 500rounds,
Ammunition cost never once entered my mind.

It is an expensive endeavor, it has a high barrier to entry, you know all that before you start.

Westley Richard’s is one of the companies waiting for you when you decide to start.

I own a WR gun and although I’ve never shot driven grouse, I think I’d rather use my Perazzi MX8 sporting clays gun with Bismuth than my WR for that pursuit…..hmmm, no steel for my Perazzi either.

That would be the wrong tool for the job.

Near as I can tell, the best grouse shots are using dynamic guns with five and 15 construction, muzzle light,

There’s a reason grouse shooting shotguns evolved into what they became.

A target gun is too slow.

I have friends that go to England/Scotland often and shoot classic, if not real old SxS. They said the additional cost for non toxic shot, in the scheme of things is not enough to make them change guns.

A friend of mine shoots Grouse with a pair of Boss guns.

I told him that if he can afford to do that he can afford to feed them with Bismuth.

People can fantasize all they want, and convince themselves of the wrong answer.
Don’t project your imagination onto a different culture in a different country where they do things differently.

It’s no different than a person in Mexico stomping their feet and telling Americans how they should be doing things. You could be entirely convinced you are right, but in fact be dead wrong.

I don't know if this is the case with WR, but I've heard some shotgun designs are having trouble with the new special steel shot proofing for high-performance steel shot cartridges.

From here:
https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/ammunition/will-my-shotgun-be-safe-with-steel-shot-cartridges-25848/#:~:text=High%2Dperformance%20steel%20shot%20cartridges,fleur%20de%20lys%20proof%20mark.

High-performance steel vs standard steel
Guns who have shot the odd standard steel load (most guns ‘Nitro’ proved to at least 930 bar will comfortably handle standard steel loads) may fail to realise that the box of cartridges they have just purchased are in fact high performance steel.

The latter should only be fired through guns that have passed steel shot proof and have been proved to at least 1,320 bar.

OWD

To OWD's point, as I have read, seen, and heard, you only need the new steel proof mark to shoot "high-performance steel" loads. (Super fast, heavy payloads.) Most in proof standard Nitro proof guns can shoot "standard steel" loads from British and European cartridge makers with no ill effect. Read the article below on this subject from the proof houses. Exceptions are listed in the proof houses' article.

https://www.gwct.org.uk/media/1106151/Proofing.pdf

So that WR gun can shoot standard steel without the new steel proof mark. But not high performance steel (super fast, heavy payloads).

Most pheasant and duck hunters in Britain can shoot British and European standard steel loads in that gun and kill birds. Watch some of the recent driven game videos by Johnny Carter on YouTube (TGS Outdoors) on this subject matter and see for yourself.

There is also a series of videos on TGS Outdoors where Johnny has been following a local duck hunter who shoots high performance steel loads through his standard nitro proof 12 bore Uggie. (Against the advice from the Proof Houses.) It has developed a slight bulge in one barrel, but no other failures so far after four years of regular use on shoreline. The guy still uses it as his primary duck/goose gun with high performance steel loads.

Personally I am not a fan of steel shot. When I shoot non-toxic I shoot factory bismuth or Tungsten Matrix shells in my Benellis and Berettas (mostly RIOs, Kents, and old Bismuth Company shells). And I still hand load bismuth for my older SxSs.

Here are the details spelling out the differences between 12 ga Standard steel shot loads vs High Performance:

Standard:
Diameter of shot no greater than 3.25 mm. Comparing to US shot sizes, US 4 shot would be too large at 3.3 mm. US 5 are 3.05 mm
Velocity measured at a point 2.5 meters from the muzzle cannot exceed approximately 1300 fps

High Performance: (Steel shot proof required)

Velocity at least 1400 fps

If shot diameter is greater than 4mm (British BB or larger), barrel must be less than half choke

Those are the CIP regulations.