doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com The pros and cons of light 12s

Six pound 12-gauge doubles aren't common, but a few do exist. Lincoln Jeffries' guns comes to mind, the occasional Lindner-Dailey, as well as the Thomas Turner Lightweights. What differentiates them all from the classic 2-inch 12s is the fact that they were built for the then-standard 2 1/2-inch shotshell. They're certainly not something you'd go shoot trap with (as most are thin-tubed, & with even thinner wrists). Where I'd expect they might excel is in the grouse woods where the days are full of walking w/o much shooting. They're all getting pretty old and fragile now (depending on how they've been kept & used) and most have dimensions that won't work for a big lug like me. But...I've always been fascinated by them.

Lloyd, I have a couple and I love them. A 1933 Purdey and an 1895 Sauer. Both are about 6 1/4 pounds. So not quite six even but within spitting distance. Also working the slow deal (haha) on an amazing Lindner 12 that is in the 5 3/4 pound range.

I think I’ve mentioned it before but have come to think about the guns more from a weight and intended load/target standpoint than from a gauge standpoint. For example, why are we thinking about 28 ga guns as though there is similarity when mine is 4 3/4 pounds and another is 6 3/4 points. A 6 pound 12 has more in common with a six pound 20 than it does a 7 1/2 pound 12.

And from the reading I’ve done, theoretically a 12 bore should pattern the same load better than a smaller bore (any smaller bore).

As I've posted several times, I have a 6# Cashmore, proofed for 2.75" and 3 1/4. Not 2.5". After having one for a while and rather loving it for everything from Grouse to geese, I've noced quite a few more in the 6-6.25# range. They are not as thin walled as you might think, nor that fragile. I fall often since I'm rarely on level ground while grousing, and holes and anthills and tussocks are hard to see in the tall grass of pheasant fields. In any event, you can over emphasize their frailty. I shoot trap with mine every Wednesday that I'm in town from April through October.

Mine is 14 7/8" LOP.

If you want one, they are out there. Just takes a little more hunting.

There are no cons.

So far, that's been 100% true over the last three years.

I have a 6 lb 1 oz 12 GA William Cashmore with 27"'barrels and 14-1/2" stock. I shoot only 1 ounce or less 2-1/2" factory ammo or my handloads. I also have a 4 lb 11 oz Verney Carron 28 gauge. I do occasionally shoot 1 oz through it, but only in the second barrel. The first barrel always has 3/4 oz loads. The one ounce charge is a little uncomfortable in so light a gun. Besides, when I do my part the birds fall just as hard with 3/4 oz as with one ounce.

James: We're clearly like-minded here.

What has kept me coming back to them is the unquestionable lethality of the 12-bore over the sub-gauge guns. I too have a very light 28 (5 1/4lbs) and a perfectly serviceable 16 (5lbs14) , and both are a pleasure to carry and use. Where I'm always wondering is the prospect of less-than-clean kills (not that it's really been a problem w/either). Full and even patterns are a thing of beauty (especially to a hunter of grouse) and most 12s throw them with abandon (2-inch 12s are quite famous for them actually).

The down-side for all of them, I suppose (especially for the 2-inch guns) is ammunition selection and then supply (Ted's recent point about his Darns is spot-on). Reloading is usually the best alternative, but with the advent of RST (& a few others) there are other options (even now). I'm treading carefully here(!) but I am still quite curious about them. Too curious in-fact to not scratch that itch.

Edit: Lots of Cashmores too it seems. I'll need to look into them.

I have two and they are fantastic. Well, one is...the second is incoming from England and I have high hopes for it. One of my primary grouse guns is a 12 bore Norman & Sons 2.5" boxlock with 28" barrels and a 15 3/8 stock. It weighs in at 6lbs 2oz and the walls are .024/.024. Chokes are Skeet/IC. What a great carrying gun that has plenty punch and an even pattern. My new one is a London sidelock with walls .028/.028 and 1/2" shorter with chokes at 1/4 & 1/2. Can't wait to get it in hand and compare them back to back. I will get the stock extended and the case fitted, probably ready to go by this spring.

I really like the 6lbs weight to carry. I have some guns in the 6.5-6.75# range and I do notice the difference on a long day's hunt. Some might say these light 12's are whippy, but I say it depends on the gun and the circumstances of the hunt. Mine works great for the way I hunt.

2" 12 gauges can, and should be, quite a bit lighter than 6 lbs. Mine is "heavy" for a 2" gun at 5# 9 oz. Most are more like 5# 4oz or less. If you want light, then the 2" is the way to go.

As far as lethality of a 12 bore over a smaller gauge, I don't see it. 7/8 oz out of a 12 is no different than 7/8 oz out of a 20 at the same velocity. I wouldn't say they pattern must differently either, though the current RST 2" loads pattern very well indeed. I'm sure a bit of tinkering with reloading would get you there with a 2.5" 20 gauge just as easily.

Reloading for a 2" 12 is getting easier. Gil and a myself and another friend have come up with a handful of loads that work very well with the 2" gun using easily available components.

I love the 2" 12 just for it's uniqueness. But I do notice that I'm more likely to carry it with my offhand on the forearm rather than having the forearm tucked into my left elbow. For grouse, that gives me just a tiny bit more time and sometimes that helps.

LLoyd, not all can do this but.... on the subject of ammo......I don't shoot at the range much....like hardly at all. And I might do a couple rounds of SC a year. Most of my ammo use happens when hunting. This approach might not work for waterfowl hunters or those playing the clays games but a while ago, in always crappy supply Canada, when I realized how tough supply was for the kinds of low pressure shorter length shot shells I needed for my vintage guns, I just started to bulk up. I have over 5000 rounds of 12 and 16 gauge and am slowing building inventory for 20 and 28 as those gauges are recent additions for me. In 12 and 16, the last 4 years of short supply has been meaningless. Properly stored, it doesn't go bad, it rises in value and it creates peace of mind on that subject. Heck, I have 1000 rounds of RST in 20 and 28 waiting for me at my US location stash. I really operate on the premise that you can't have too much. Now, I didn't go out and buy it all at once. I just bought amply, especially when I saw a deal, and made sure I had more in January that i had the previous September.

Others may solve the problem a different way and its quite hard to do this (for a multi year supply) if you are, say, an avid skeet shooter. But with upland now my main focus Its quite manageable and when I'm gone, my son with thank me. Hahahaha!