doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Double flintlock shotgun by Richard (?) Cutler

Argo44, thanks for the information and the chart, which I'd previously seen but had not fully appreciated the start date of.
I suspect the images you can see are of the Mantons I was comparing the Cutler somewhat unfavourably to.
Here are some more images of my gun. Hopefully these will display properly (I have yet to figure out why some of my Dropbox links work when others don't):

[img]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ypa2...rlkey=3147ubxnhe3ixer6lyx2dtart&dl=0[/img]

[img]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/b9sb...rlkey=tggy5qkqmlivxl9pxazcr4g1u&dl=0[/img]

[img]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7ns5...rlkey=2thc2dkqpd5sl0xyt69nulht8&dl=0[/img]

I found a source stating that there was no penalty for selling an un-proved barrel until the Gun Barrel Proof Act of 1855.

https://vlex.co.uk/vid/gun-barrel-proof-act-808271557

Easy to be an "expert" when there are no experts on pattern welded barrel identification, but IMHO those are English Stub Twist barrels. Unfortunately I have no list of early Birmingham tube makers to ID 'HSI'

c. 1780 Henry Nock flintlock with very messy Stub Twist



"Fine Twisted Stubbs" I don't know the ?Crown over V and the 'R' marks



I think this is a Kirkwood with "Fine Stubs Twisted"

Joseph Manton percussion ML single which much nicer Twist barrels. Manton was at Hanover Square c. 1812-1820



Interesting Crolle flat and Twist tube, with London proof. I don't know 'JB'

I'll add Jules photos so all can see the gun. I find this topic extremely interesting as a historical understanding of the UK proof process.

Anno Regni GEORGII III. Britanniarum Regis,Quinquagesimo Tertio. An Act to insure the proper and careful manufacturing of Fire Arms inEngland ; and for making Provision for proving the Barrels of such Fire Arms.

(53 Geo. 3) C A P. CXV
[10th July 1813]

'WHEREAS serious Injuries are frequently sustained by Persons using Guns, Fowling Piece, Blunderbusses, Pistols and other Fire Arms, from the bursting thereof, in consequence of the Barrels of such Guns, Fowling Pieces, Blunderbusses, Pistols and Fire Arms, not having been sufficiently proved; and it is therefore expedient that the Manufacturers of Fire Arms should be compelled to prove the same at some Place appropriated for that Purpose as a Public Proof House: And whereas great Quantities of Fire Arms and Barrels for Fire Arms are manufactured in the Town ofBirmingham and the Vicinity thereof, and it would tend to the Safety and Security of the Public if a Proof House for Fire Arms, under proper Superintendance and Inspection, were to be established in or near the said Town:' May it therefore please Your Majesty, that it may be enacted; and be it enacted by the King's Most Excellent Majesty, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the Authority of the same, That, from and after the Expiration of Three Weeks from the passing of this Act, no Barrel shall be used in the making or manufacturing of any Gun, Fowling Piece, Blunderbuss, Pistol or other Description of Fire Arms usually called Small Arms, unless the same shall have been duly proved at the Proof House of the Gunmakers' Company inLondon , or at the Proof House to be established under the Provisions of this Act, or some Proof House belonging to His Majesty, or other Proof House established as a Public Proof House by Law; and which Public Proof Houses His Majesty is hereby authorized and empowered to establish in such Places, and under such Regulations as to the Care and Management thereof, as His Majesty shall think fit.

S-II Using or selling Barrels not duly proved.
II Using or selling Barrels not duly proved.

II. And be it further enacted, That, from and after the Expiration of Three Weeks from the passing of this Act, every Person who shall use or cause or procure to be used any Barrel in the making, manufacturing or finishing of any Gun, Fowling Piece, Blunderbuss, Pistol, or any other Description of Fire Arms as aforesaid, or who shall sell or cause to be sold any Barrel for the making of any Gun, Fowling Piece, Blunderbuss, Pistol or other Description of Fire Arms, which shall not first have been duly proved, and marked as proved at the Gunmakers Company's Proof House inLondon , or at the Proof House to be established under the Provisions of this Act, or some Proof House belonging to His Majesty, or other Public Proof House established as such by Law or by His Majesty, shall forfeit and pay for every such Offence any Sum not exceeding Twenty Pounds to be recovered as hereinafter mentioned.
. . . . . .etc., etc.

Thanks Gene.

Another Hanover Square Manton with not as nice Stub Twist

Many thanks, Drew and Gene, for the fascinating gallery of twist examples, and for the repost of my uncooperative images. Fascinating, too, to see the actual text of the legislation that set the seal of authority on the proof system.
Here are a couple more images of if the Cutler:
Barrel stamps
links[img]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/aged...rlkey=2qml71rv3s1yal5httiqst3d2&dl=0[/img]
Twist pattern
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/a4l3...rlkey=7634o7w05e9gu3s2hgbbuimwc&dl=0[/img]

I found the following description of barrel-making in an 1818 work by Sir Richard Phillips (1767-1840), The book of English trades, and library of the useful arts (London, Stereotyped by G. Sidney, for R. Phillips; published by J. Souter, 1818). It may be that this is already a well-known passage. It may also be suspected that Phillips is not entirely to be relied upon in matters of detail. In any event, I though it of enough interest to share here.

A facsimile of Phillips' work, containing the complete article on the trade of "Gun Maker", from which this is an excerpt, is available from the Internet Archive:

"To form a gun barrel in the manner generally practised for those denominated common, the workmen begin by heating and hammering out a bar of iron into the form of a flat ruler, thinner at the end intended for the muzzle, and thicker at that for the breech; the length, breadth, and thickness of the whole plate being, of course, regulated by the intended length, diameter, and weight of the barrel. This oblong plate of metal is then, by repeated beating and hammering, turned round a cylindrical rod of tempered iron, called a mandril, whose diameter is considerably less than the intended bore of the barrel. The edges of the plate are made to overlap each other about half an inch and are welded together by heating the tube in lengths of two or three inches at a time and hammering it with very brisk but moderate strokes upon an anvil which has a number of semicircular furrows upon it, adapted to the various stages of barrels. The heat required for welding is the bright white heat which precedes fusion, and at which the particles of the iron unite so intimately with one another that when properly managed no trace is left of their former separation. These heatings and hammerings are repeated until the whole barrel has undergone the same operation, and all its parts are rendered as perfectly continuous as if it had been bored out of a solid piece. For better work, the barrel is forged in separate pieces of eight or nine inches in length and then welded together, lengthways, as well as in the overlapping. The other mode being the easiest and quickest done, is the most usual.

The barrel is now either finished in the common manner or made to undergo the operation of twisting, which is a process commonly employed on those barrels which are intended to be of a superior quality and price. This operation consists in heating the barrel in portions of a few inches at a time to a high degree of red heat; when one end of it is screwed into a vice, and into the other is introduced a square piece of iron with a handle like an auger, and by means of these, the fibres of the heated portion are twisted in a spiral direction, which is thought to resist the efforts of the powder much better than a longitudinal one."

Yes, that would be the early "Twisted" (not Twist) barrel. The tube was fabricated by folding a sheet of "Plain Iron" over a mandrel, then welding the long edge



Gervis Francois Magne’ de Marolles, 1789
An Essay On Shooting (An English adaptation of Marolles’ original)
http://books.google.com/books?id=-Q0AAAAAQAAJ&dq

The (Twisted) barrel when forged (is) made to undergo the operation of twisting, which is a process employed by the French workmen on those barrels that are intended to be of a superior quality and price to others; but which as will be seen in the sequel, is very different from that followed by the English workmen in the formation of their twisted barrels. This operation consists in heating the barrel in portions of a few inches at a time, to a high degree of red heat, when one end of it is screwed into a vice, and into the other is introduced a square piece of iron with a handle like an augre and by means of these, the fibres of the heated portion are twisted in a spiral direction that is found to resist the effort of the powder much better than a longitudinal one. To render this operation as complete as possible, it is necessary to observe, that when one the several portions of the barrel have been twisted, the heats that are afterwards given in order to consolidate the fibers of the metal in their spiral direction, by means of the hammer, ought not to be very great. Otherwise the grain of the metal will regain its former state, and the barrel be no better than it was before it underwent to twisting.
From the process it is evident, that to twist a barrel in this manner, throughout its whole length, it must be forged nearly a foot and half longer than it is intended to be when finished, that a portion at each end may be kept cold, so as to give a sufficient purchase to the vise and twisting instrument during the operation: these portions are afterwards to be cut off before the barrel is bored.
The English workmen with whom we have conversed…are all of opinion…that this process of twisting…is really injurious to the barrel, by straining the fibres of metal.

French flintlock with "Twisted" barrels





Thomas Burgeland Johnson, The Shooter’s Guide; Or, Complete Sportsman’s Companion, 5th Edition, p. 157, 1816
http://books.google.com/books?id=5DQCAAAAYAAJ

A common gun-barrel is formed in the following manner. – The workmen begin by heating and hammering out a bar of iron into the form of a flat ruler, thinner at the end intended for the muzzle, and thicker at that for the breech; the length, breadth, and thickness of the whole plate being regulated by the intended length and diameter, and weight of the barrel. This oblong plate of iron is then, by repeated heating and hammering, turned round a cylindrical rod of tempered iron, called a mandril, the diameter of which is considerable less than the intended bore of the barrel. The edges of the plate are made to overlap each other about half an inch, and are welded together by heating the tube in lengths of two or three inches at a time, and hammering it upon an anvil that has a number of semicircular furrows in it, adapted to the various sizes of barrels; and by this means, the whole of the barrel is rendered as perfectly continuous as if it had been bored out of a solid piece.
The barrel, when forged, is either finished in the common way, or made to undergo the operation of twisting; which is a process employed on those barrels which are intended to be of superior quality and price to others. This operation consists in heating the barrel, in portions of a few inches at a time, to a high degree of red heat; when one end of it is screwed into a vice, and into the other is introduced a square piece of iron, with a handle similar to that of an auger; and by means of these, the fibres of the heated portion are twisted in a spiral direction, which has been found to resist the efforts of the powder better than a longitudinal one.
Twisted barrels are deservedly celebrated superior elegance and strength. The iron employed in them is formed of old horse-shoe nails, which are originally made of the softest and toughest iron that can be produced; and which is still further purified by the numerous heatings and hammerings it has under gone in being reduced from a bar into the size and form of nails. Twenty-eight pounds of these stubs are required to make a single barrel of the ordinary size. These barrels are twisted into a spiral form, by means of the anvil and hammer alone, which is not the case with common barrels…

Lots of methodology information here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BdbWHfJmr2EyvzcPybid7pwlEliH6m9pr1LxMESM3W0/edit
and
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oPd3fOeToSHZwCaahXNIyV3sGVqow_Z_ENO8Fnk7kTQ/edit