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Forums10
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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,111 Likes: 594
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,111 Likes: 594 |
LGF: I'm suspicious of your assertions here ( thousands?) as I was an EPA contractor in the "lead" wars some 20-years ago where the mining companies challenged the so-called studies being presented as fact by the "regulators" then. They effectively held-off some of the more-onerous requirements. Sadly, there's nobody left to fight what is coming now.
Last edited by Lloyd3; 08/20/23 09:03 AM.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 764 Likes: 23
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 764 Likes: 23 |
Poisoning thousands of eagles? https://www.treehugger.com/bald-eagles-no-longer-endangered-5070353As we all know, lead shot has been banned for waterfowl hunting since the early 1990's. Eagles, Hawks, Owls, and Ospreys are thriving. In fact, eagles are killing each other due to the number of them. Growing up in the 1960's-70's an eagle sighting was a rarity. Now they are a fairly common sighting. While I feel that the days of lead are numbered, I don't agree with some of the arguments. My feeling has always been that loss of habitat and wetlands, human encroachment, and unchecked predation do far more damage to waterfowl and game populations than lead shot. Mandated lead shot bans, like we are seeing on some of our Federal Wildlife Refuges/Areas are just political backdoor ways to curtail hunting, price people out of it, or make you find other activities. Hunters have always been the true conservationists. An eventual transition to non-toxic shot/projectiles should be voluntary and gradual, never mandated.
Last edited by OldMaineWoodsman; 08/18/23 07:17 PM.
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4 members like this:
greener4me, Ted Schefelbein, Imperdix, craigd |
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Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 468 Likes: 188
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 468 Likes: 188 |
Before Dave locks the door on this thread, anyone care to expound on Simon’s statement (@ 5:20f) that “Muzzle flip with a side by side is down not up.”?
Speude Bradeos
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,117 Likes: 92
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,117 Likes: 92 |
I was scratching my head over that one too. Downward muzzle flip in a SxS. That’s news to me
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Joined: Oct 2022
Posts: 53 Likes: 19
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2022
Posts: 53 Likes: 19 |
Sounded like he was saying something about the barrels physically deflecting downwards under firing, but if I remember correctly they oscillate up and down like a wave, not just only down.
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1 member likes this:
Stanton Hillis |
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,463 Likes: 212
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,463 Likes: 212 |
....When visiting a clays ground in a metro area, if you see a younger person, they are of means typically.
So, I’m thinking that the soaring cost of participation has reduced younger participation in the clay sports in this region.
It may not be that way everywhere.
For reference, a non member line of skeet (25 targets) is $5.00, and a box of 20 gauge skeet loads is $10.99 around here.
So, $16.00/line.
That is a 300% increase over 15 years.
Weighing enjoyment/$, there are all kinds of alternatives available. And, the cost of the cheap stuff is driving new shooters away? Plus, the march towards three plus dollars a shot is inevitable? I think many of us can remember a red rider being the best thing ever, point being, there is no conceivable connection to good doubles. I think, know, the next classic and antique enthusiasts are shooting their red riders today, and they look like Glocks and tactical ARs. A few kids will grow up and think, why not pay for a quality double, they've already put a small fortune into trendy things that go bang. A few of the smart kids will think less of ole papa for letting some great, uniquely American traditions become so eroded. Hey gramps, it's okay, you can keep yourbiden baseball cap, but wanna go out for some rare steak with bacon lunch, my treat.
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,463 Likes: 212
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,463 Likes: 212 |
"lead shot" (or even lead bullets) isn't a problem for anybody except a few eagles that were eating wounded geese back east. So you're okay with poisoning thousands of eagles, vultures, condors because you are inconvenienced by nontoxic shot? But you're even wrong about that - the lead ban was instituted because enormous numbers of waterfowl were dying after picking up lead shot from the bottom of ponds as grit in their gizzards. USFWS spend years doing endless studies on that mortality and the decision to ban lead was taken very reluctantly in the face of overwhelming evidence. Of course, there are those among us who label any data we don't like as 'junk science' if it suggests that we need to change old habits or tolerate an inconvenience merely to prevent needless wildlife death and promote conservation. Yes, steel shot causes more crippling but even that has improved greatly since it was introduced. I would much prefer to use lead rather than expensive bismuth in my old guns but not at the cost of causing great waterfowl mortality from starvation after ingested lead prevents them from digesting food. But that's just me. How many thousands of eagles are you looking the other way, and pretending they are not dead at the base of wind turbines? No, it's not just you, look at your likes. So, what is the more glorious image, dead Goldens scooped before too many pictures are snapped, or the mighty Bald eagle, engrosed in road kill. No, I guess my examples don't work for you, and I'm not even belittling you?
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keith, mc, Stanton Hillis |
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,160 Likes: 1154
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,160 Likes: 1154 |
Stan: what non-toxic alternative are you referring to? Bismuth, Lloyd. Plain old bismuth. Been around since the 90s. I, for one, don't think it's going away anytime soon. All my best, SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,756 Likes: 748
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,756 Likes: 748 |
"lead shot" (or even lead bullets) isn't a problem for anybody except a few eagles that were eating wounded geese back east. So you're okay with poisoning thousands of eagles, vultures, condors because you are inconvenienced by nontoxic shot? But you're even wrong about that - the lead ban was instituted because enormous numbers of waterfowl were dying after picking up lead shot from the bottom of ponds as grit in their gizzards. USFWS spend years doing endless studies on that mortality and the decision to ban lead was taken very reluctantly in the face of overwhelming evidence. Of course, there are those among us who label any data we don't like as 'junk science' if it suggests that we need to change old habits or tolerate an inconvenience merely to prevent needless wildlife death and promote conservation. Yes, steel shot causes more crippling but even that has improved greatly since it was introduced. I would much prefer to use lead rather than expensive bismuth in my old guns but not at the cost of causing great waterfowl mortality from starvation after ingested lead prevents them from digesting food. But that's just me. Did the lead that was deposited in those ponds over the last 125 years or so suddenly vanish when non-toxic shot was mandated? Or, do waterfowl not pick up that lead shot anymore? Inquiring minds want to know. The science sucks. Always has. Best, Ted
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5 members like this:
David Williamson, greener4me, keith, Imperdix, Stanton Hillis |
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,344 Likes: 390
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,344 Likes: 390 |
Preacher, it is amusing to see you are concerned about repetition concerning the lead ban threats that have the potential to negatively affect both our vintage doubles and future participation in the shooting sports. The lead ban threads might not get so contentious if it wasn't for easily refuted garbage like LGF posted, that the anti-lead advocates are afraid to answer. For instance, if lead shot was truly killing vast numbers of waterfowl before the ban, then why did the damage stop so abruptly? Large numbers of ducks should still be dying slow deaths since thay are still feeding in the same shot contaminated waters. All of the lead shot deposited in lakes, ponds, estuaries, and swamps over a couple hundred years should still be there. There was no Super Fund cleanup. Many of these migratory birds are wintering in countries where lead shot is still legal too. And they almost totally ignore all of the other environmental sources of lead that is/was in much more bio-available forms, and deposited in far higher quantities. How about the highly questionable data in all of those non-peer reviewed studies that have been posted here by the anti-lead guys? Most come from rather anti-hunting and very agenda driven sources. We've seen great disparities in what supposedly constitutes lethal blood lead levels in both waterfowl and various raptors. The differences are so stark that you'd have to be blind to accept them as factual and credible. One study these fools cling to cited a sick eagle that had blood lead levels that were said to be so high they were far beyond lethal and literally off the charts. Yet this bird was miraculously strong enough to be found perched in a tree. I'd be embarrassed to believe utter bullshit like that. In one Thread, our ex-CIA Intelligence Analyst posted a dishonestly edited version of the Audobon Society's position on restrictions on bird hunting. He went on to deny his own quoted post, and got highly pissed when craigd called him out on his edit of the truth. Is it any surprise that civility goes out the window when people pull crap like that? What is even more pathetic is that a few exceptionally thin-skinned guys then whine and cry to Dave Weber in order to get the threads locked or deleted I’m really sorry to see some say that lead ammunition bans are inevitable. The best way to have that happen is to simply give up the fight, or to vote for the anti-gun Democrats who are behind it.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
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1 member likes this:
Ted Schefelbein |
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