doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Winchester Model 21 Skeet

I am in the process of buying a Model 21 skeet in 12 gauge. Interestingly, both barrels are marked SK1. All the M21 skeet guns that I have seen have have been choked SK1 and SK2.
So, how common is it to have both barrels marked SK1? From a skeet shooting perspective, it is advantageous to have both barrels SK1 as it provides a more open choke. For upland bird hunting, and sporting clays shooting, the SK2 provides a tighter pattern which helps with a more distant target.
I look forward to your replies.
Bill

I agree with your assessment of WS1 and WS2. WS1 in both barrels is not common and the fragile muzzles would not be my choice.

I've had a M21 26" 12 gauge with WS1 and WS2 chokes for many years and, fortunately, have not had an incident affecting the WS1 choke. I'll continue to be extra cautious to protect the muzzles.
My new to me M21 has 28" vent rib barrels which I much prefer to my 26" solid rib skeet gun. I've looked for years to get a 28" vent rib skeet gun; and it has 32" vent rib full and full barrels as well---lucky me. Such guns are not uncommon in the US but here in Canada they are really hard to find.

No offense, but I don't understand this conversation. You should be able to shoot and break any target with both barrels of WS1 on a Model 21. At skeet, sporting clays or live pheasant. If you're good enough. I've run 25 straight at skeet with a Remington 20 gauge pump gun with cylinder barrels, a Model 21 with both barrels I/C, a 12 gauge Citori with cyl/cyl, I've even run 26 straight with my 686 Silver Pigeon O/U trap gun by sliding the gun up in my arm and lining up the beads like Tom Knapp always did. Probably the best shooter we had at our club used to shoot skeet with 1/2 oz. load filing up the rest of his 20 oz. shells with popcorn to take up the space in the hull and a Cutts compensator on his Model 12. And not to mention I've taken pheasant with a full choked, 20 gauge Ithaca pump shotgun. And did pretty well with my Citori and cyl/cyl chokes. So, why couldn't you shoot or hunt with a Model 21 with WS1/WS1 chokes? And why would WS1 chokes be fragile? Like I said, no offense, but could you gentlemen explain this? Are you using steel shot?

Yes, I'm talking about lead shot---I hope my M21's never see steel shot.
The purpose of my thread is whether the WS1/WS1 choke combination is uncommon compared to the supposedly more common SK1/SK2 chokes. From there we have digressed a bit about the merits and demerits of the SK1 vs WS2 chokes. The WS1 choke is jug choked (recessed) which results in less wall thickness at the muzzle and, therefore, vulnerable to damage.
In my younger days I shot NSSA skeet for many years and still enjoy the occasional recreational round. For 12 gauge, a more open choke (like WS1) will break more targets than a tighter choke (WS2). You certainly don't need a 12 gauge in skeet to shoot impressive scores --- a good competition shooter can make a 1/2 oz load in a 410 look easy.
The SK1/SK2 chokes were developed by Winchester back in the 30's, long before plastic wads came on the market which boosted shotshell performance and skeet scores.
I trust my long discussion is helpful.

I'm glad you explained that, but has lead shot ever damaged WS1 barrels? I might be wrong, but I've never heard of it. Winchester proof tested their barrels to several times normal loads and there have been many WS1 guns made over the years and a lot of rounds of skeet have been shot through them. But then again, I might be wrong. I never heard of people feeling that way about WS1 chokes. Maybe, I won't be so excited about buying skeet guns from now on. So, thanks again and good luck.

I sure don't see that the muzzles of my WS-1 bored Model 21s are particularly thinner than any other open bored guns. Certainly not thinner than skeet bored Browning Superposed Lightnings.

Winchester steel barrels were always considered to be the strongest barrels made from what I have ever read. I have never heard of anyone ever calling them "fragile". Are the Model 12- WS 1 barrels made the same way? Just wondering.........

WS-1 is not jug choked - it is pretty much the exact opposite. Jug choking involves "enlarging the bore for a short length just behind the muzzle. The shot column expands into this area and is then constricted again at the muzzle." (PGCA) WS-1 involves constriction back from the muzzle followed by an enlarged diameter to muzzle. That terminal flare is of even greater diameter than the bore, hence the wall thickness concern. Whether the loss of wall thickness at muzzle is a concern at all depends on the individual. I'm not especially lucky, but have never damaged a WS-1 muzzle.

Most WS-1 12 ga chokes I've measured had 8-9 thou constriction. That, and decent 1.125 oz Pb, is good enough for most field situations. For NSCA I'd much rather have WS-2......well, more than that. But many small clubs set courses for which IC would be adequate.

Why did Winchester see fit to burden the Model 21 Skeet Guns with that way too tight for skeet WS-2 choke? Winchester shooters with their Model 12 Skeet Guns shot all their targets with WS-1. Remington's SKEET choke was essentially the same as Winchester's WS-1, and Remington Model 31, Sportsman and Model 32 Skeet Guns all had that choke.