July
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
Who's Online Now
1 members (SKB), 136 guests, and 5 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,708
Posts548,151
Members14,438
Most Online1,344
Apr 29th, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#631208 06/08/23 03:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,207
Likes: 339
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,207
Likes: 339
A Belgian lady contacted me through Dave with questions about her Grandfather's Reilly. The pictures she sent were not the best but I summarized what it was about:
-- 12 ga SxS Shotgun
-- EM Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London & rue Scribe Paris; Made at 16, New Oxford Street.
-- SN 25044 - dated to May 1883.
-- Originally proofed for Black Powder in London; reproofed for Nitro in London after 1904
-- A&D Box Lock patent use #2189.
-- Action made by Joseph Brazier Ashes.
-- highly engraved in English rose & scroll
-- Westley Richards style top lever and doll's head
-- Damascus barrel in annular crolle pattern. Extractors
-- Unusual stock with half pistol grip (not seen on Reilly 12 bore shotguns) and the gun has sling swivels.. . .both very much in continental/French style.

Reilly advertised Brazier locks in the 1862 London exposition at something like £5 extra but I've never actually seen a Reilly with Brazier locks or actions. Given the amount of engraving, the Brazier Ashes action, the fine barrel, this looks like a custom best gun. The Belgian lady said it was the property of an English lord who sold to her grandfather about 1928. I know there is some controversy over whether a box lock can be a best gun but this one just might make the grade.

Would appreciate comments from anyone who is familiar with Joseph Brazier Ashes actions in the 1880's. Brazier must have been licensed to make it by Westley-Richards

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 06/10/23 09:33 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
2 members like this: campero, Parabola
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,460
Likes: 333
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,460
Likes: 333
That would be 3 Iron British Best by any standard Gene.

1 member likes this: Parabola
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,287
Likes: 536
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,287
Likes: 536
Serious question….how did you ascertain that Brazier made this action? Is there a specific mark on the outside of the action that indicates this?

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,999
Likes: 214
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,999
Likes: 214
I believe it reads on the water-table??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,207
Likes: 339
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,207
Likes: 339
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
1 member likes this: Parabola
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,287
Likes: 536
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,287
Likes: 536
Great close up. Thank you.

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,207
Likes: 339
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,207
Likes: 339
I'll try to get her to send better pictures. They are Christian Lebanese origin (well-grandfather was) who came to Europe in the 1920's when France had the Lebanon and Syria mandate. The grandfather apparently bought the gun in Lebanon in the 1920's and brought it with him with his Belgian or French wife. The Englishman who sold it said he had sent it back to Reilly to be serviced and customized to his specifications (date unknown but most likely to 295 Oxford Street between 1904-1912 bankruptcy). Her father is now 84 and cleans the gun twice a week. Speaks French as a native tongue...much better than English. Fine sounding people. (I lived in Brussels for 3 years in the 1980's). I haven't seen many box locks in this across the board quality but was most curious about the Brazier action.

edit: The way the gun is configured in continental style with half pistol grip and sling swivels, I would bet it was special ordered in Paris at 2 rue Scribe by a Frenchman not an English lord. Which would explain its presence in Lebanon in the 1920's. But....whatever.

Last edited by Argo44; 06/10/23 09:37 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
1 member likes this: Parabola
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 931
Likes: 379
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 931
Likes: 379
One of our forum members, mc, has 2 Greener A&D guns both marked Joseph Brazier Ashes on the action under the bottom plate.

Greener certainly had a licence from Westley Richards to build A&D guns, that is mentioned in the Facile Princeps Patent litigation. As Greener had already bought a licence from Westley Richards it prevented him from arguing that the A&D was not an original invention.

As I understand it, the firm that put their name on the gun and sold it as “theirs” was the one who had to have the licence, so if Reilly had a licence from Westley Richards Brazier may not have needed one. Westley Richards would get their 15 shillings per gun royalties in any event.

As to whether a boxlock can be a best gun, W. W. Greener would build you a best sidelock if you insisted but made it clear that that he regarded the boxlock as a better action and generally built all his very best guns as boxlocks.

In William Evans 1895 (?) catalogue he shows a price range but all grades including the best at £47/10/- can be ordered as either sidelock or boxlock.

My Edwinson Green BLE, specially ordered in 1894, had Whitworth chopper lump barrels, Tudor Rose chiselled fences, and profuse engravings. It was £35 plus 3 guineas surcharge for the Whitworth barrels and I would rate it as a best gun in any company.

Last edited by Parabola; 06/26/23 04:43 PM.
3 members like this: Argo44, mc, Ted Schefelbein
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,207
Likes: 339
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,207
Likes: 339
Thanks Mr. Para. That is a very interesting and apt observation.

I believe Reilly like Greener must have had a license from Westley Richards. There are about 7 existing Reilly's built from 1881 to 1888 it would seem on the Westley Richards type top lever/doll's head. None of them have any W-R markings.

In addition, thanks also for your comment on Box-locks and "best gun". I think I will tell the correspondent that it is a consensus that this should be considered a "best gun" from Reilly based on the quality of the build, its components and engraving.

Gene

Last edited by Argo44; 06/09/23 06:52 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
1 member likes this: Parabola
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,857
Likes: 384
mc Offline
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,857
Likes: 384
This is an interesting gun the only connection with WR is the use fee paid .I think brazier was a major player in mfg.guns for a lot of gun companys and iron mongers from what I have read you could buy locks forging guns in the white or finished guns the outworker system made it where small company's could compete in high quality firearms.

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.085s Queries: 41 (0.057s) Memory: 0.8602 MB (Peak: 1.8993 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-07-22 09:57:51 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS