doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Steel shot testing 2023

No, don't lock it, lol.

My purpose for introducing the medical spin on "peer review" was because it was presented as grail. I have seen peer reviewed articles in the AMA Journal and The Lancet, conclude that when random people go to an emergency room for medical care, that black ethnicity is medically relevant for cutting to the head of the line?

Back to steel shot, and related to your insights, should we expect a predictable conclusion when various branches of the department of the interior, commission "studies". Who are the peers who keep this science on topic? Someone probably has the numbers, but I'd guess it's likely the late1800's, since any gov study said, yes hunters/shooters have a point.

The isotope test were mentioned because it is seen as indisputable proof that the source of lead is neccessarily sporting shotgun lead shot. Of course, even the purpose driven authors of these papers, such as one you linked, must admit to inaccuracies and assumption, in a minimalist way. The Canadian study in your link said that weather likely carried massive amounts US generated combusted gasoline containing lead additive, north, but isotopes say it's impossible for an earthworm to ingest that variant. I would bet we could shoot lead paint chips, and that would be safe, because of how assumptions are made by worshipping the isotope. Something tells me, any time lead isotopes come up mixed source, blame the shogun pellet.

I'll edit to add that I added a like to your post, right next to the prof, simply for the purposes of noting that there is a difference between traditional science that can be repeated any where in the world with high predictability, and the science of emotional triggers. Now faith is entirely a different matter, and hopefully the secular progressive prof doesn't belittle the notion.

Craig: reasonable people, with some capacity to critically analyze information, can disagree regarding methodology, statistical analysis, interpretation and most certainly the application of the information.
Lead is a (useful) environmental toxin, and especially hazardous to children.
IMHO a dead duck, with a green vent, lead in the gizzard and an elevated lead level is adequate evidence of a problem.
Conservationists have been concerned with the issue for 120 years, and professional wildlife biologists have been publishing articles for 60 years, which I cited. And at least the wildlife biologist I met in Kansas, with degrees from Ft. Hays State, Emporia State, and K-State were mostly from rural areas, smart and fully capable of critically analyzing some of the stuff coming out of Washington. I believe ad hominem attacks on their integrity, because one doesn't like the data, is inappropriate. (See the Eagles thread)

It doesn't help to throw into a pot lead toxicity in waterfowl, lead toxicity in raptors, lead toxicity in scavengers and then mix in climate change, the efforts by some to outlaw sport hunting, shut down target ranges and outprice target shooting, lead in the water in Flint, the "Green Movement", COVID, George Soros, Greta Thunberg & environmental racism and pour out some vast conspiracy theory as to why lead shot was banned. Conspiracy theories (and faux-omniscience) are coping mechanisms, esp. for the not so smart and those with OCD, but we usually find out over time that they are detached from reality.

Since lead shot was banned, lead levels in waterfowl have fallen dramatically. I wish there was better data to confirm that fall has resulted in lower mortality - everyone keeps repeating an "estimated 64% reduction" based on a single study > 20 years ago. Unfortunately. waterfowl diseases have been increasing during that same period.
And I agree steel shot is terrible stuff for humanely harvesting game.

The best study of this issue that I have read is "Lead poisoning as a Mortality factor in Waterfowl populations" F.C. Bellrose, 1961. It is available on line but is quite lengthy as it involved nationwide input and control experiments involving feeding raised Mallards lead shot in controlled doses. It addresses many of the questions expressed in this thread and is, in my opinion most informative. If someone would post a direct link to it that would be beneficial.
All the best!

The abstract is back on p. 4 Hugh
Here's PDF
https://iopn.library.illinois.edu/journals/inhs/article/view/172/133

So now more questions. Why limit your shooting to the inferior steel, or correctly, iron shot? There are a couple alternatives that closely mimic lead performance or surpass it. Cost, really? How many rounds do you shoot per season? Compared to the expense of the rest of the trip where does the cost of bismuth or tungsten ammo fit? Do you shoot 100's + rounds per season? I reiterate that I do not hunt waterfowl. I can assure that in my trips that ammunition costs are minimal compared to fuel, food and lodging/campsites. None of which so far have kept me from taking the trip(s).

Just not liking something or someone is a pretty weak argument.

Yup, it’s almost as if I’m a loon, instead a waterfowl hunter. Sad story, I’ll use and enjoy what I have, but I flat out prefer not to spend my money on gent’s guns and rifles anymore. Nowadays, my coping mechanism is to buy things that “friends” of the double gun lecture me about being offensive and are proactively trying to ban. I do not believe it’s in my head, I can tell what’s going on? Always a pleasure Doc Drew, thanks for your tolerance.

No almost craig. Buy some bismuth or just wait 'til they are closer. Pretty simple.

That's good prof, of course it's simple, when you have no substance. I gladly use nontox shot for waterfowl, but that's not good enough for you, is it. When my grandkids visit, they shoot thousands of rounds of whatever they feel like, and bismuth aint gonna cut it. They know papa isn't a hypocrit like prof shooting subsonic lead out of his ban free .22s, or feeding earthworms lead, five hundred and fifty grains at a time. Do as I say, not as I do huh prof.

Did I ever say you should? Just waterfowl, Craig. You really are loosing it entirely.

Preacher, I kind of suspected that your goal was to get this thread locked when you began trolling links to some of the same agenda driven anti-lead source posted in the past by Ben Deeble. I felt you were probably hoping to ignite a shit-storm.

Nice try, and nice of you to confirm that getting this thread locked was your hope. But that sort of scheming, conniving, and duplicitous behavior is what I've come to expect from a phony like you. I did accurately predict in my second post here that there was a faction that would be attempting to get this thread locked or deleted.

It was a nice touch to include that pic of you with some real preachers in another attempt to try to keep fooling people. Personally, I think you would have ginned-up more support and sympathy if you had posted that picture of the little Guatemalan girl or your dead dog again. The dead dog photo you have posted was a real tear-jerker, and one of the most pathetic displays I have ever seen from someone who purports to be a male. Even you should admit that your new group photo was a pretty lame response when you had no cogent response to the points I had made, and had to fall back once again on deception and personal attacks.

I'm sorry that you aren't capable of separating and mentally processing a Thread which may contain comments on several related and unrelated topics at once, such as lead poisoning in ducks, raptors, scavengers, along with comments on phony climate science intended to demonstrate that we shouldn't be fooled by demonstrably bad or dishonest science. I know that's a lot for someone like you, who also apparently feels the pathetic need to exaggerate and include things that have not been posted in these lead ammo discussions, such as George Soros or environmental racism, whatever that is. Are your emotions getting the best of you again??? Do you have any anti-anxiety meds in your little fanny pack? Please take some.

I think it shows a lot about you when you attempt to tar others as OCD or consumed by vast conspiracy theories when it is a well-known and widely recognized fact that the Green Movement and some of the sources of anti-lead junk "science" such as Peregrine Fund and SOARRaptors have an anti-hunting agenda, and have funded so-called research that is non-peer reviewed, highly biased, and contains very questionable data and methodology to reach premeditated conclusions.

I have stated many times that I am not a waterfowl hunter, because I am not fond of eating duck or geese. I do however often find myself in various waterfowl habitats, and simply have not seen any evidence of widespread lead poisoning problems. None of the many other hunters I know see it either. And I'll tend to trust the veracity and observations of guys like Stan, who have hunted waterfowl with a passion for decades in multiple states, over a multitude of swamps, rivers, lakes, and sea shores. These are guys who put in the long hours, and absolutely would be alarmed if they saw evidence that the resource they hunt was in grave danger of significant population loss or extinction due to the use of lead ammunition. Instead, the vast majority seem to question the 1991 ban, and see crippling losses from steel as a bigger problem. I'll believe them over some anti-lead activists, anti-hunters, or some wild-eyed professor of ecology who is pacing in front of a lecture hall and regurgitating "science" which contains glaring errors and wildly conflicting data concerning lethal doses of lead in avian blood.

It's pretty sad when someone who talks a lot about courage lacks the stones to admit that such bad "science" is a real thing, and is instead more heavily invested in trying to start a shit-storm in order to deceptively manipulate Dave Weber into censoring or locking discussions that are intended to show that many of the attacks on our sport, our choice of ammunition, and our rights to own firearms are also rooted in deception.

I don't want someone like you to pray for me. But if you must, pray that I'll be delivered from phonies like you.