doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Spanish gun proof?

Kyrie,
At the time the French Halifax, above, was produced, a lot of guys would have hand loaded for their guns, especially the rural guys. But, there would have been commercial loads available, and a French guy in those days would have wanted to know a couple of things about his gun. Length of his chambers, level of proof, and what powder the gun was proofed with. Just prior to, and for some time after 1900, proof powders PJ, PS, and PW were in common use, and generated similar, but, not identical pressures to powder T, proof house marking PT. The paper hulls were often used in chambers just a bit shorter than the loaded length of the cartridge.

You would buy cartridges for your gun that matched what the directions said. Usually. It was Americans that maxed out the pressure levels and loaded big load numbers in the hulls and fed them to their guns. And, it was no big deal on the great majority of the repeaters that were in common use.

Shoot ‘em, if you got ‘em.

Best,
Ted

When the Aspen Outfitting Company were still selling their Ugartechea shotguns, Jon Hollinger had produced a small brochure for their light game guns which instructed such procedures as assembly, loading, operation, maintenance, choice of ammunition, use of steel shot, etc. I believe at the time, they were offering a lifetime warranty on their AOC/SG Ugartechea light game shotguns.

For the choice of ammunition he had specified as follows:

12 GA. Guns – 7/8 oz. to 1 1/8 oz. of # 6, 7 1/2, 8 or 9 shot. No more than 3 drams equivalent of powder.

16 GA. Guns – 7/8 oz. to 1 oz. of # 6, 7 1/2, 8 or 9 shot. No more than 2 3/4 dram equivalent of powder.

20 GA. Guns – 3/4 oz. to 7/8 oz. of #6, 7 1/2, 8 or 9 shot. No more than 2 1/2 dram equivalent of powder.

28 GA. Guns – 1/2 oz. to 3/4 oz. of # 6, 7 1/2, 8 or 9 shot. No more than 2 dram equivalent of powder.

_________
TC

Thank you Tim.
Those guns were likely proved to the post-1970 Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives standards
12g 50mm, 65mm, and 70mm “Standard Proof” lead or steel (limited to no larger than 3.25 mm and max. fps 1,300).
Numbers are transducer BAR converted to PSI.
Maximum Average (SERVICE) Pressure 740 BAR = 10,733 psi;
Maximum Statistical Individual Pressure 850 BAR = 12,328 psi
Mean PROOF Pressure 960 BAR = 13,924 psi

Both 65 and 70 mm 16g standard is SERVICE 780 BAR or 11,313 psi;
MSIP 900 BAR or 13,053 psi;
PROOF 1020 BAR or 14,794 psi.

Both 65 and 70 mm 20g standard is SERVICE 830 BAR or 12,038 psi;
MSIP 950 BAR or 13,779 psi;
PROOF 1080 BAR or 15,664 psi.

Hi Drew,

Thanks. Yes, post 1970, I visited Aspen Outfitting in 2014, Jon Hollinger gave me a copy of his AOC/SG information brochure. At the time, I was looking at getting a 20 gauge AOC/SG Ugartechea,I believe they were proofed for 950 BAR.
________
TC

Spanish guns proofed under CIP rules are also suitable for US ammunition with the caveat (in my opinion) that very heavy loads should be avoided in the lighter weight game guns. This isn't because of chamber pressure but rather recoil that can damage stocks, especially side lock guns with a lot of wood removed from the head of the stock to inlet the locks.

My wife and I have 5 Spanish guns: 28 GA BLNE, 2 20 GA SLE's, 16 GA BLE, and 12 GA SLE.

Our maximum loads are based primarily on the recoil that we are willing to stand, rather than the maximum load the gun might be able to stand. Our target and small bird loads are:

28 GA - 3/4 ounce at 1200 fps
20 GA - 7/8 ounce at 1200/1210 fps
16 GA - 1 ounce at 1165 fps
12 GA - 1 ounce at 1180 or if shooting 50 rounds or less in a round of clays 1 1/8 ounce at 1145

For those times that "more" is needed when shooting early season pheasants in SD or sharptails in MT:

20 GA - 1 ounce at 1220 fps
12 GA - 1 1/8 ounce at 1200 fps
12 GA - 1 1/16 ounce at 1325 fps (Bismuth "just in case" a friend and I hunt a Waterfowl Production Area in MT - we haven't yet, the box is still full)

If I can't break a clay or kill a bird with one of these loads I can't do it with a load that might break the gun or my shoulder - my 74 year old shoulder is more delicate.

Several years ago I read a thread on Shotgun World about a cracked AyA No 2 SLE stock - the original poster had been warned that the 1 1/2 ounce at 1440 fps was too heavy for an AyA No 2 but he ignored the good advice he received. The recoil of that heavy, fast load is 54.5 foot pounds - the heaviest load I listed above is 26 foot pounds - the load that cracked the stock had slightly over twice the recoil of the heaviest load we will shoot. Keep your loads reasonable and a Spanish gun in good condition will be fine with SAAMI loads.

Very well said, sir.

I would add the butt stocks of shotguns made as light game guns frequently have internal wood removed from the butt stock at its rear to help balance the gun overall. This (these) newly made stock void(s) are then plugged with a round wood plug. Here is a (poor) image of the butt of such a stock taken from a video showing the shaping of that butt stock:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j17x4nfrwi1g99i/stock%20plug2.jpg?dl=0