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Originally Posted by Mark II
The big companies buy powder in huge lots that are NOT a powder we can buy over the counter. They work upa load that fits their velocity needs that are less than SAMMI pressure standards. It could be 8000 psi or 11,000. And the next lot will be different,could be higher or lower. French guns are well known to for the most part be hell for stout. There are handloads using Federal wads or clones and Federal hulls that are low enough pressure to meet the requirements of a 2 1/2" gun. With all the high school trap teams shooting Federal those hulls are easy to find. Good luck in your search.

This.

I have been trying to tell guys for about two decades that the store bought load they had pressure tested a year or two ago has no bearing whatsoever on the load that is sitting on the shelf this year, even if it is the same style of box.

The boutique ammunition guys, yes, if that is what they tell you. But, those guys aren't saying much at all, right now.

Best,
Ted

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Argo44 Offline OP
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We've discussed this a few times. Last March I asked the same question when in dire need of shells. I bought the Federals specifically because of Drew's posting of Bell's chart. I reasoned that those Federal shells were close enough to #4 below (except mine of course are plastic not paper). I shot those Federal shells today in my 12 ga French Saint-Etienne proofed "Wonder"...circa 1926.. without a problem...with a goodly amount of recoil. But based on the comments, I did not use them in the Damascus barreled Reilly. I'll look for 7/8 oz Federal shells. (yet per bell's chart the difference between 7/8 oz Federals - plastic hulls - and 1 1/8 oz - paper hulls - was almost negligible). Just wish RST would get back into the business.

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ub...;Main=48256&Number=612418#Post612418

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Thanks Ted, I looked for the Federal for a reason...from this line which is pretty good I think:

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=400821

Thinking of: 12 gauge 2 3/4" Winchester AA extra lite shell, 1145 fps, 1 oz, 7 1/2 shot. If they can be found,
But reading the comments in the above line, Federal hulls produce dramatically lower pressure than Winchester.

I'll repost Dr. Drew's chart with the black splotches eliminated:

Many thanks to Bill Johnson for scanning and sending "Long Shells in Short Chambers", Sherman Bell with technical assistance from Tom Armbrust in "Finding Out for Myself", Part V, Double Gun Journal, Winter 2001

The test barrel was a "heavy" Krieger barrel with piezo-electric transducer at 1" from the breech and an Oehler velocity gauge 2 5/16" from the breech.
Tests were performed:
1. 2 1/2" chamber with a 7/16" forcing cone - "British chamber" (BC)
2. 2 1/2" chamber with a 1 1/4" forcing cone - "Modified British chamber" (MBC)
3. 2 3/4" chamber with a 1" forcing cone - "American Chamber" (AC)
Each load was tested in each chamber at least 5 times.
No significant change in velocity was noted between the 3 test chambers
It was not unusual to have 300-600 psi spread between shots

LOADS
1. 7/8 oz. in Federal plastic hull at 1185 fps in the 2 3/4" chamber
2. 7/8 oz. in Estate plastic hull at 1206 fps
3. 1 oz. in Federal paper hull at 1137 fps
4. 1 1/8 oz. in Federal paper hull at 1120 fps
5. 1 oz. in Remington plastic hull at 1205 fps
6. 1 1/8 oz. in Winchester plastic hull at 1186 fps
7. 1 1/4 oz. in Federal plastic hull at 1091 fps
8. 1 1/4 oz. in Winchester plastic hull at 1136 fps
9. 1 1/8 oz. with GOEX FFFg in Federal paper at 1184 fps
10. 1 1/8 oz. Bismuth in Federal plastic at 1091 fps
I only include the standard target or game loads that were tested

��..BC--...MBC-....AC-..Difference BC vs AC
1)..5725--...5905-..4834--..891 psi
2)..6225--...6065-..5009--..1216 psi
3)..5865--...5325-..5263--..602 psi-.."long cones do reduce pressure"
4)..5845--...5665-..5058--..787 psi
5)..7805--...7845-..7577--..228 psi
6).11,125-.11,045-10,787-..338 psi
7)..6892--...6805-..5953--..939 psi
8)..8765--...8545-..7870--..895 psi
9)..5405--...5265-..4603--..802 psi
10).6765--...6365-..6380--..385 psi

Last edited by Argo44; 10/06/22 06:56 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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argo, if you are feeling a goody amount of recoil when shooting any ammo, best to stop shooting that ammo, before you crack the wood...


be patient, the marketplace will eventually fill the void for light recoiling ammo...too much demand and money to be made for that not to happen soon...


keep it simple and keep it safe...
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The French "Wonder" is a box lock with a healthy stock too. It's a war trophy I bought pretty cheaply as an extra gun for my Special Forces weekenders with several buddies. It's not going to crack. It may have been cheap but it still handles nicely and is quite attractive.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=481696


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"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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re the competion one ammo...

i used to use those for skeet...they are pleasant to shoot in old guns...


keep it simple and keep it safe...
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Originally Posted by Shotgunjones
Federal hulls are often chosen to hand load lower pressure shells because data is published for them using wads intended for tapered hulls.

What is the effect of using tapered shell wads in straight walled hulls?

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Originally Posted by LGF
Originally Posted by Shotgunjones
Federal hulls are often chosen to hand load lower pressure shells because data is published for them using wads intended for tapered hulls.

What is the effect of using tapered shell wads in straight walled hulls?

They gas seal poorly resulting in lower chamber presure.

Powder migration may or may not be a problem depending on the powder.


"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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As a 16ga shooter, I remember being really excited to hear that Federal had come out with a factory 7/8 oz 16ga load. But I wasn't thinking clearly. Federal wasn't looking at the niche market of the relatively small number of people who seek out light loads to shoot in vintage/foreign guns. They were looking at dove hunters. And those shells had a velocity of somewhere north of 1300 fps IIRC.

The Winchester low noise/low recoil shells are one way to go. But shooting skeet on days when it's well below freezing, I've heard quite a few "poofy" reports. Might work OK in more moderate climates.

Going with CIP proof ammo will reduce pressure somewhat, their average service pressure for "standard" loads being several hundred psi below our SAAMI standard. But they're still close to 11,000 psi as we measure it.

The solution has always been to reload. Except you need the right components to turn out low pressure loads. And you may very well have difficulty finding those.

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Thank you Mr. Jones. I'll go back and read the Bell article again. I was under the impression he was reporting on factory loaded ammunition.

Now, what is it about the Reilly research that you find unintelligent? Just curious. Thanks again.


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