doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com French sidelever hammer gun arrived - Questions

Good evening colleagues. I was the successful bidder on a French side-lever 16GA hammer shotgun, which arrived today. The auction house described it as follows:

French side lever side by side double barrel shotgun made in France by Marquis Coirrer in Paris circa the late 19th century. 29 - 1/2" twist steel 16 gauge barrels marked on concave rib marked "MNF MARQUIS COIRRER succ BOULEVARD DES ITALIENS PARIS" with bead front sight and extractors. External hammer, full coverage vignette engraved action with side opener lever and double triggers. Deluxe checkered walnut English grip stock with diamond carving behind locks with heel and toe checkered butt with plugged entrance hole (probably for weight addition). Matching checkered walnut splinter forearm with push button release and coin silver diamond inlay. CONDITION: 40% remaining twist pattern with action worn to a silvery brown patina. Wood has traces of original finish with usage dings and marks. Pitted bores with good mechanics. A great gun for restoration. DLM Barrel Length: 29 - 1/2" FFL Status: Antique Gauge: 16 Manufacturer: Marquis Coirrer Model: SXS Serial Number: 1043.

The link is below, which includes the auction pics.
https://www.proxibid.com/A-MARQUIS-...E-HAMMER-SHOTGUN/lotInformation/69310248

I took more pics today, bur I am not sure which application to use to post them. The gun looks to be in good shape for its age. The barrel flats are marked Leopold Bernard and on the other side annotate work, which i could not make up and the word Paris. There is 2 groups of numbers marked on the underside of the bottom rib, but they don't match the number 1043 that is marked on the action flats. The flats and barrels don't have any other marks or proof marks I could see. Hammer are rebounding hammers. Side-Lever work perfectly and the gun locks tight. The stock has the usual for its age nicks and dings, but it looks solid and with a very nice figure to it. Barrels ring true and they have some pitting, but not too bad. I am not sure whether they are twist steel or damascus. It looks they need a good clean-up. Some goes for the lock plates because they have some dark spots, as you can see from the pick in the link, especially the left side plate. The whole action trigger guard, hammers, side-level, and the stock tow and heel metal clips are engraved with small "english" scroll.

What impressed me and made me bid on the gun was its apparent quality, being a hammer gun, being a 16Ga that I love, the overall engraving and how the action is filled in a rounded shape That shape is also followed by the side plates. And all that at a period with computes, CNC machines etc.

I would like to have the barrels and the guns evaluated and then debating whether to do a "sympathetic" cleanup/restoration, or a full refinishing, including barrel re-browing, stock refining, etc. In the past I have used Gunter Pfrommer, and Kirk Merrington, both with great results. What are your thoughts and what would you suggest for this project?

Note: I can post more pics, if you help me how to figure out how to do that. It has been a while since I posted pics here.
Thank you in advance.
BillK

A few preliminary thoughts. I've searched "Marquis de Courier" (I believe from the blurry rib this is the spelling) on French web-sites and nothing comes up so far.



Blvd des Italiens was a prestigious Paris address. I suspect Courier was an "Armurier" - a gun merchant; Armurier's all over France sometimes assembled guns using parts from Paris or Saint-Etienne and put their names on them if they had enough prestigous clientel.

SNC? needs clarification. Normally "SN" will be "Société nationale". Might this be SNCF, i.e the French national railroad - Société nationale des chemins de fer français?

I suspect also that the gun (or at least the barrels) was made by legendary Parisian barrel and gun-maker Leopold Bernard, the gold standard of French barrel makers in the 19th century. Bernard always dated his barrels...there should be a date on there somewhere. At least by 1881 some claim he was sometimes using Belgian barrels blanks.

The barrels look to be stub-twist Damascus. (Even as early as the 1860's France and Belgium far outstripped UK in the decorative patterns of their Damascus. Stub-twist remained the UK normal up to about 1865. So it's a little surprising to find this pattern on a presumably 1880's gun. Dr. Hause can comment further). Standard French barrel length by the late 1890's was 27.5". The fact that these are 29.5" makes me think this is an earlier gun. Side-levers are rare in French guns.

The chamber length should be on the barrels. by the 1890's at least most Saint-Etienne guns were chambered for 65mm (or 6.5 in Saint-Etienne only)..i.e. 2 1/2". But there are a lot of guns in the 1880's that had longer chambers. It will be black-powder proofed unless reproofed.

The Barrel bore should also be stamped on the barrels in mm.

We need pics of the proofs and all the marks. I don't know Parisian proof-house stamps as well as Saint-Etienne but photos of the proof marks and other markings on the gun would be a good place to start. Get a free account on imgur.com. You can then download the photos and post the code here.

If Leopold Bernard made the barrels, you have a blue chip. Will look into this further tomorrow. But that sir is a very attractive gun!

Gene Williams

Thank for the informative post Gene. I measured the barrels and they are indeed 29.5". The barrel flat is clearly marked Leopold Bernard with cartouche to the left and right of his name. The other barrel flat has 2 words with a cartouche on the left and right of the words. I think he first word says "CANNONIER" then a mark like a star and then the word "PARIS". Nothing else is marked in the barrel flats. The underrib has the following numbers stamped to it. 1st set of number closest to the flats is 28949, second set of numbers is 1880, 3rd set on numbers in front of the barrel loop where the forend catches 25236, further down 1043 (serial number matching the action flat number. No proof marks or other markings on the barrels I will try to set up an account with imgur.com tomorrow and will post the pics I have taken so far. Anyone who can provide additional information about the gun, would be most welcome.Thank you in advance.

1880 will likely be the date of the barrels. The "Cannonier - Paris" (barrel-maker Paris) is likely an "advertisement" of sorts for Leopold Bernard. French guns always had these with pet names for their steel, etc. Once you get detailed photos posted here, there are a couple of French contributors who can chime in and we will make progress. We have rarely commented on a Paris proofed gun. Very interesting I must say.

A very very nice find indeed, in way too many respects to stay calm ... My congratulations!

I'm afraid I'm no expert on French guns albeit I own a few, including an underlever hammergun; but my preferred system is side lever (of which I only own a German Drilling).

Cheers,
Jani

The barrels are Plain Twist, which Bernard was known to make
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fMs-Mn60ei9QsRcHT5Urm_eHobzJnaDKZiP3FP0fXb0/edit

By the mid-1800s the tube makers were having trouble sourcing horseshoe stubs, and mostly transitioned to Plain Twist
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BdbWHfJmr2EyvzcPybid7pwlEliH6m9pr1LxMESM3W0/edit

Good morning. Can someone please tell me how to upload pics? Thank you.

Agree with Gene on the Courier spelling on the barrel. As noted above, we don't get too many examples of French guns, especially proofed in Paris, that are that old. looking forward to more pics including whatever proofmarks there are.

Here are a couple of pics from the Morphy Auction site forwarded by Bill. I've sent a PM offering to post pics if he'll email them to me.

Bill, follow these directions:

1) go to this site: https://imgur.com/ - open a free account. Your account with the name you select will appear here:
2) Click on your account:
3) Click on "Images"
3) Click on "add images"
4) A box will appear. Drag your image to the box from your desktop
5) It will appear in your library. Click on the image
6) a series of codes will appear...click on "copy" on this code (for messages boards and forums)
7) just go to your message and paste code in your text.
Voila!!