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Lloyd3 Offline OP
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Drew: Thank you for that. I remember going through most (if not all) of the above articles several years ago (now 20-plus?) and mentally summarizing said data for my own satisfaction (before finally going off to shoot my then laminated-steel 20-bore). Trying to digest it all again takes serious concentration (as the data continues to be all over the map, with the reference points being very hard to pin down). Best I can do to summarize is to state that the 1891 Proof House tests had the very best Silver Steel Damascus tubes going to 4,200 grains of shot and powder before any "rejecting bulge" appeared. By comparison, the twist barrels went to only 2,400 grains of shot and powder. Now... what that means as far as comparative pressures is anyone's guess (I'm fairly certain I found something to convince me then that... everything would be allright, but damned if I can remember exactly what that was now). After much pondering, I seem to remember a translated (from German) table summarizing the respective failure pressures of Krupp "Fluss" Steel to the other steel (and damascus) tubes of the period (the middle 1890s?). That table had a later addendum (possibly from Winchester?) also showing Winchester's Nickel Steel and then Winchester's 1930 Proof steel. I distinctly now remember the burst-strength numbers being in the mid-60,000 to lower 70,000 psi range for both early steel and damascus tubes, 90,000 psi for Krupp "Fluss" steel, 110,000 psi for the later Winchester Nickel Steel, and then finally a claimed 130,000 psi(!) for the 1930 Winchester Proof steel.

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Entropy,
Welcome to the forum. In my opinion you will also have a great deal of joy raising the GSP pup and watching its progress as you train it. I am jealous of you for what you have coming ahead with your boys and new pup.
Mike.

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Short version Lloyd
These numbers are all for gun barrel, non-heat treated steel
Twist and Crolle Damascus tensile strength is about 55,000 psi
Winchester Standard Ordnance and other "cold rolled" Bessemer/Decarbonized steels and AISI 1020 are similar in strength at about 60,000 psi
c. 1900 Belgian sourced “Fluid Steel” used by all the U.S. makers (Cockerill, Siemens-Martin & Krupp Open Hearth) and AISI 1030 are similar in strength at 75,000 - 85,000 psi
Krupp Fluss Stahl (Homogeneous Fluid Steel) was introduced about 1890 might be a little stronger
AISI 1040 (and modified), Vickers, Cockerill Acier Universel or Acier Special & Bohler “Blitz” are similar in strength at about 100,000 psi
Winchester Nickel Steel, Marlin “Special Smokeless Steel”, Remington Ordnance Steel, Krupp “Nirosta” (1912 patent NIchtROstender STAhl 21% Chromium / 7% Nickel Stainless Steel introduced in 1913), 4140 Chrome Moly (not used until after 1930s) and 4340 (Chromium, Nickel and Molybdenum) are all similar in strength at > 115,000 psi


It is important to remember tensile strength is only a part of the equation for estimating bursting pressure. If the barrel is made of Twist with a 50,000 psi tensile strength, that does NOT mean that it will withstand a 10,000 psi load by a factor of 5.

Barlow's formula P=2 S t / D
P=Bursting pressure in psi.
S=Tensile strength of material in tube wall.
t=Wall thickness in inches.
D=Outside diameter in inches.

Barlow’s refers to a pipe capped at both ends with a static pressure (a pressure cylinder). Shotgun barrels are not designed to be pressure vessels as one end is open and the pressure rises and falls quickly.


And this regarding the Proof House Trial
The five barrels tied in Phase 2 failed at 12.5 times the Definitive Proof load or 11.34 Drams with 2.82 oz. shot. It should be noted that the 12th barrel (because of ties) Foreign Pointille’ Twist failed at 5.77 times DP and the 13th (last) Foreign Four Rod Crolle’ failed at 5.74 times Definitive Proof.
The test barrels however had uniform dimensions, without chambers cut, and much thicker wall thicknesses that used on shotgun barrels.

A reassuring comment in Sporting Guns and Gunpowders regarding an additional study published in The Field June 6, 1891 by Horatio F. Phillips, a “staff experimenter” with The Field
"These experiments serve to show what a very large margin of strength there is in a good gun barrel, when ordinary charges are used. The (Damascus) barrels which gave way earliest...had withstood the strains of…about four times as great as the regulation proof; while the steel barrels (Siemens-Martin and English “Superior Barrel Steel”) were tested…with charges averaging nearly five times as much as the ordinary proof-charge.
Although the steel barrels showed the greater amount of endurance, the strength of the Damascus was so much in excess of all ordinary requirements that no fear need be felt of their giving way when the work is properly done."

To quote John Brindle’s summary of the Trial:
“Thus steel had proved stronger than Damascus in this test, but the strength of both was such that this did not matter one bit, such was the margin of safety in a barrel of either material of suitable dimensions and without flaws. And it was the purpose of regular proof tests to find those flaws if they existed.”

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Lloyd3 Offline OP
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Appreciate it Dr. Drew, that brings it all back now.

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mc. This is the only Advertisement for Joseph Brazier I came across in my searches, it also states Actions and Barrels this is a huge pointer that the Birmingham and Black country gun manufactures were able to supply any type of gun and quality you desired.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


The only lessons in my life I truly did learn from where the ones I paid for!
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Thanks all. Appreciate the warm welcome.

The 16ga is indeed a joy to shoot. No issues over a good dog who holds to flush and retrieve. Very gentlemanly! Looking forward to the new dog.

The Eley’s (and another brand same era who’s name escapes me) sit on the shelf, they’re too pretty to shoot. I am still working on my supply of RST’s.

The others in my possession are a E&G Higham 12ga boxlock, a “no-name” .410 bore folding gamekeepers single shot, and a Cooper and Goodman 10 bore hammergun. The Cooper and Goodman is in excellent condition, but has fairly pitted bores. I have never shot it even with BP. It locks up solid, and has some beautiful wood. I will post some pics with proofmarks perhaps tomorrow here to see if anyone here could lend a hand with additional info.

Again, appreciate the welcome and shared interests.

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Lloyd3 Offline OP
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Entropy: Welcome! If fine guns & dogs are your preferred pastimes, then you'll find a wealth of knowledge here.

Last edited by Lloyd3; 05/14/22 06:15 PM.
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mc Offline
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Damascus.thats more then I have found I contacted greener he said he could give information on my guns but never said anything about brazier.i do know greener was selling a&d action guns very early after the pat.mine is around 200 use number

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I use hammer guns almost exclusive for upland and water fowling. We enjoy all actions and hunt with breech open hammer down for pass shooting and breech open hammers at half cocked for flush.
[img]https://www.flickr.com/photos/38708782@N02/52071765260/in/dateposted-public/[/img]

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