July
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
5 members (ithaca1, rocky mtn bill, eeb, MattH, 1 invisible), 73 guests, and 2 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics37,050
Posts519,663
Members14,183
Most Online462
Aug 5th, 2016
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 5 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,393
Likes: 74
Lloyd3 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,393
Likes: 74
In reading Diggory's book again here, the variety of hammer shapes over the years is astounding. Starting with the pinfire guns and evolving through the final iterations, many different shapes and styles were employed. It's funny what I'm drawn to, but the one's that mimic (or were converted from) the original shapes used during the pinfire-era look absolutely fabulous to me. Ultimately the "dolphin" types of hammers seems to be a high point of styling IMHO (a classic example of those would be the one's on Joe Wood's fully cocked Thomas Johnson above). I think the earlier pinfire hammers look more-like what an actual dolphin's head might to me (and is perhaps where the idiom comes from?), but the engraving style and patterns on the latter true "dolphin" hammers are usually a visual tour-de-force (the darn things even have eyes!). And, the pairing required to achieve any symmetry in the guns (right down to even the slightest engraving) can't have been easy. Imagine the man-hours involved in all that (hundreds I'd guess? skilled labor was obviously much-cheaper in those days). The combination of functional (the cross-hatching on the ears so they wouldn't slip while cocking) artfully blended with the characteristics of a large swimming mammal? How does one come up with that one? The hammers on Joe's early 1870s Greener (pictured above as well) are yet another engraving masterpiece, look how the folate scrolls evolve up the body from the base...just stunning. Pictures simply don't do that gun justice, only seeing it in person gives you the full-effect. Those self-retracting strikers are pretty wild looking too (another first for me).

Last edited by Lloyd3; 05/08/22 08:58 PM.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,113
Likes: 87
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,113
Likes: 87
I own and shoot about a dozen hammer guns, mostly at clay targets because that seems to be what I get to shoot mostly. Nothing is fast or even more practical about hammer guns but I still love them. The one I still want is a S. Grant side lever, but every one of them seems to go for three times the estimate at auction. I have a Charles Smith with a forwards facing side lever which I shoot extremely well, but it is no Grant.

I know I not in the majority, but a top lever ruins the lines and function of a hammer gun. My first choice would be a side lever, interesting enough both left and ride side lever seem to work equally well for me. I have a Pape 20 bore thumb under lever which is a joy to shoot. 30” barrels choked mod and mod is a real killer.

The Purdey trigger under levers are interesting, but I find them a bit fiddle to use. Perhaps my thumbs are too short or fat. A Lang push forward under lever would be just behind a Grant on my list. There are a lot of options if you are patient. Rebounding or non rebounding never made much difference to me. I am not on a driven shoot where half a second makes any difference.

There is a British internet hammer gun dealer site with about 30 different guns on hand. Prices range from 3,000 pounds to 30,000 pounds. Often there are guns from provincial makers, not from London, which seem to have more interesting values. Then there are always the auctions but nice hammer guns, which had little interest ten years ago seem to have recovered a following and nice one go for bigger bucks than I am willing to spend.

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,393
Likes: 74
Lloyd3 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,393
Likes: 74
KY Jon: I have always been attracted to guns with a clean profile along the top of the action. A top-lever combined with the hammers does tend to make things seem a little "busy" on the top of a gun, which is why side-levers always looked so darn-good to me too. The same for snap-actions, hammer "lifters", and even Dougal's somewhat-awkward looking (at least to me) "Lockfast" guns. The profile of almost every "modern" doublegun includes a top-lever, which is exactly why hammer guns without them look so-darn unique.

There is clearly a "steampunk" component at work here (look that one up!), certainly in the appeal of double guns from the 1860s and 1870s, because they just look so-dramatically different. In a world of seemingly-endless conformity, they simply don't. The price of that "difference" is usually a more-cumbersome (& accordingly slower) loading, firing, and then re-loading process, and while that's not quite as "prehistoric" as a muzzleloader might be, they're really not...very far from it. But, by the 1880s and beyond, the top-lever came into dominance and the lion's share of the guns from that period onward seem to have them. As I cast my eye over the offerings available to a newcomer onto the hammered-shotgun scene, the more-practical (I.E., more-affordable and less worn-out) options usually have top-levers. You're clearly paying a premium, nowadays, to get a sidelever gun and for exactly those reasons.

Curiously, the Jones-patent sidelever option doesn't seem to be affected by all of that. My view of them has always been, admittedly, somewhat less-enthusiastic as even-more than the many other lock-up options (& seemingly much-like a muzzleloader) Jones-patent guns dramatically slow-down the whole loading/reloading process. By re-thinking the whole Hammergun "ethos" however, I am warming-up a bit-more to them. I'd even consider one now (which is quite an admission from me). After much consideration (& a fairly deep dive into the literature) it all boils down to "condition" now. I'm looking for a mostly-original hammer gun that hasn't been abused or (God-forbid!) tarted-up excessively. A little honest clean-up is fine, but original finishes look far-better to me than the many alternatives, and if that gun has a top-lever or... even a Jones, it matters not.

Last edited by Lloyd3; 05/08/22 09:53 PM.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,871
Likes: 142
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,871
Likes: 142
Lloyd,
I’ll help you out. Clean on top:

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]


You won’t believe how slick that V safety is for a lefty.

Best,
Ted

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,901
Likes: 45
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,901
Likes: 45
Lloyd, I’ll challenge you a bit on the Jones underlever. A Jones can be cycled almost as fast as with a top lever. I’d say at most the Jones takes about one second longer, maybe less all else being equal. Remember, when you close a Jones the lever automatically cams to within an inch or so of the triggerguard. To finish closing my hand never leaves the stock wrist but I just reach with my index finger and quickly pull it over the triggerguard. Remarkably fast once you get used to it. And a Jones underlever, non ejector is about as bullet proof as any gun ever made. And I’ll choose the wedge forend fastener any day over the Anson or Deeley fasteners. Totally dependable. And as my old gunsmith David Yale once told me, “I’ve never seen a Jones off face.” Oh, the pin and hook can wear but the camming down of the Jones makes the action rock solid.

A well kept secret is a fine gun with a Jones action that is also non rebounding is often half the price of the more “modern” guns. There are very few non rebounders remaining. When Stanton invented the rebounder most earlier gun’s locks were sent back to the maker and converted to the new fangled rebounder. That was a major overhaul requiring a new tumbler and a totally new mainspring along with a tiny bit of new inletting.

You do understand I’m not prejudiced about the Jones, don’t you? LOL!


It ain't whether you hit a bird that matters, it's the fun you have even if you don't.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,058
Likes: 8
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,058
Likes: 8
My E C Greene 10g with Jones Lever does exactly what Joes says. Close the barrels and the Jones closes most of the way. Do it hard and it will close completely.


So many guns, so little time!
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,113
Likes: 87
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,113
Likes: 87
Jones under levers are extremely strong actions. Many were still being used for double rifles, long after the top lever came into fashion. Side levers and push forwards under levers are really neat. I had been looking for a Lang push forwards under lever for several years. Most were worn out or seemed to cost twice what I wanted to pay. I found one which is swept for central vision and bought it for a bargain. Shot it last weekend at sporting clays and had a decent 44 out of 50 on a course that I consider very easy. Missed four birds on the first station. I stopped over thinking about shooting a central vision gun. After I started just concentrating on seeing the bird and focusing on the bird I got into a groove.

I have several non top lever hammer guns. The period of 1860-1875 saw a lot of locking systems come and go and hammer guns can be found in almost every flavor. Find a gun with solid barrels and the rest will take care of itself. Do not rule out a sleeved gun. While they may weigh a bit more they will give years of service. In fact, most hammer guns will have tired barrels after 140-150 years of life. I always look at a sleeved gun as a gun brought back to life.

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,393
Likes: 74
Lloyd3 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,393
Likes: 74
Being a southpaw, the Jones looks pretty unwieldy to me, but I suppose after a fashion I could get used to it. Ted, the safety on the few Darne's I have handled didn't seem all that friendly to me. Mr. Wood: I've made at least one pilgrimage to Yellowjacket back in the day to see David Yale & his Susquehanna Machine Tool business. I hear he's hung up his spurs?

Last edited by Lloyd3; 05/09/22 07:05 PM.
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,032
Likes: 45
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,032
Likes: 45
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

This is one of the smoothest outline guns if you like snap action leaver though they do take a lot of adapting your shooting style to use comfortably, also keeping your leaver thumb nail short or you may loose it.

Joe here is another Joseph Brazier

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

This gun is one of the death us do part from my collection. It has spent all of its life in a Victorian Violin case to remain hidden from inquisitive eyes because it spent all its life working on each side of the line, game keeping and poaching. The family that owned the gun like the real skilful poachers are now gone, only this is now left.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

It has one of the longest top straps I have come across

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The gin is a 12 bore with 30 inch barrels but built on a smaller than usual frame. I have tried to fit other 12 bore guns in the case but non ever fitted correctly.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

It really does not look like a gun transport case

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I did try some research into completed guns made by Brazier but only came up with a few pieces of information. Braziers only sold completed guns to top level retailers and guns in the White only to top level gun makers, this Brazier made gun has the name Adams it also carries a full set of London Proof Marks. Those sharp eyed amongst you will see that the fore end escutcheon is missing this went missing on the last club black powder day it is now beyond my capabilities to manufacture a replacement so up the the guns next owner.


The only lessons in my life I truly did learn from where the ones I paid for!
1 member likes this: eeb
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 236
Likes: 6
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 236
Likes: 6
Originally Posted by Lloyd3
Being a southpaw, the Jones looks pretty unwieldy to me, but I suppose after a fashion I could get used to it. Ted, the safety on the few Darne's I have handled didn't seem all that friendly to me. Mr. Wood: I've made at least one pilgrimage to Yellowjacket back in the day to see David Yale & his Susquehanna Machine Tool business. I hear he's hung up his spurs?

Being right handed with a left eye dominance, all my shotgun & rifle shooting is done from the left shoulder and with just a little practice I think you'll find Jones under lever fairly easy to use.
After the shot is fired, the fingers on the left hand push the under lever from 6 o'clock to 3 o'clock while the right hand lowers the barrels
Once the barrels are open, the right hand grabs 1 or 2 shells from the belt, pouch or pocket, inserts the shells and raises the barrels at which point the left had pulls the under lever from 3 o'clock to 6 o'clock.

I don't have large hands or long fingers, but without rushing, I can probably reload the gun in under 2 seconds, with grabbing the shells and inserting them into the gun being the longest part of the process. It certainly isn't going to be as fast as a double with ejectors, but it isn't much slower than a double using a side or top lever and just extractors.

I probably felt the same way you do now, before I started using a Jones under lever, it is quicker to use than it looks.

Last edited by Chantry; 05/10/22 11:05 AM.

I have become addicted to English hammered shotguns to the detriment of my wallet.
Page 5 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2022 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.046s Queries: 36 (0.024s) Memory: 0.8630 MB (Peak: 1.8992 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2022-07-04 11:51:46 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS