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Originally Posted by OldMaineWoodsman
The Anti's don't care.

They don't care that a blanket ban on lead ammunition would mean retiring your grandfather's Savage Model 99, or maybe your Remington Model 8. Both of which still see plenty of use around the country.

They don't care about the guys who reject the modern in-line "muzzleloaders" and continue to shoot their traditional percussion and flintlock guns.o

They could care less about Parker, L.C. Smith, Fox, or Lefever.

They also don't care about the sporting camps and guide services who would also be impacted by a blanket lead ban.

I'm all for non-toxic alternatives provided that they are compatible, truly readily available and affordable.

Remember and always realize that their real agenda is no hunting period. Like I said, help them achieve a little victory and it will be onto another ban.

OMW gets it.


The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
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The "bullets of hunters" are killing doves, and then the Eagles are polishing off the lead-laden doves?? Silly me, but my excuse is I live in a state that has banned dove hunting, so I am a tad ignorant of the rules and regs-- but I am 99% certain shotguns are used, with birdshot leaden loads, and not rifle cartridges. RWTF


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So ........ is there a difference in lead toxicity to a "body" when it is implanted into tissue, as compared to it being ingested? Many people have been shot and have lived long lives with lead in their tissues, me included.


May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
So ........ is there a difference in lead toxicity to a "body" when it is implanted into tissue, as compared to it being ingested? Many people have been shot and have lived long lives with lead in their tissues, me included.

Absolutely! And even more so, for birds with a gizzard. Acidic digestive enzymes coupled with very fine mechanical grinding that hugely increases the surface area to interact with those acids makes a real one-two punch.

We have discussed this many times here.


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Originally Posted by Run With The Fox
The "bullets of hunters" are killing doves, and then the Eagles are polishing off the lead-laden doves?? Silly me, but my excuse is I live in a state that has banned dove hunting, so I am a tad ignorant of the rules and regs-- but I am 99% certain shotguns are used, with birdshot leaden loads, and not rifle cartridges. RWTF
Check out the "reports", as always, they are claiming that gut piles left by big game hunters, are the major source of lead poisoning in Bald Eagles. It can't possibly be any other reason, that's why the balds numbers are on the rise.

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Sadly, it seems like every time there is any discussion here concerning lead ammunition bans, there are always a couple guys who either buy into the junk science, or act as if it is inevitable, so therefore we should just give up the fight. They think we should either retire our vintage guns, or switch to very expensive non-lead ammo that is ballistically inferior to lead. And when they start quoting Tom Roster, and become convinced that steel shot is as good or better than lead, there is no hope of changing their minds. It's the same mentality of those who think Biden is doing a great job.

In the past, we had guys like Ben Deeble posting large numbers of links to studies that supported lead ammunition bans. Virtually none of those studies were peer reviewed, and most were done with a very obvious anti-lead bias. It didn't take much reading or intelligence to see that many contained easily refuted 100% unadulterated bullshit. It quickly became apparent that those who were swallowing this crap were not really reading them, or were simply too dumb to understand what they were reading.

For example, in the 2016 "Lead and Condor Deaths" thread, there were numerous very questionable and inconsistent statements made based upon these false studies. Some of our internet anti-lead experts were clinging to studies that contained very conflicting data concerning just what constituted a lethal blood lead level in eagles or waterfowl. One that was particularly amusing concerned an eagle that was recovered with a blood lead level that was off the charts, well beyond what was considered lethal. Yet that bird was found perched in a tree. The experts here couldn't explain how an eagle with such a high blood lead level was able to still be healthy enough to fly... and perch on a tree limb.

The simple answer is that it was a big fat lie... an impossible fabrication intended to advance an anti-lead ammunition agenda.

The wild stories about all of these poor bald eagles feasting upon zillions of deer gut piles which are supposedly laced with thousands of lead bullet fragments are simply more unproven fiction. Even more disturbing is the fact that most of theses junk science studies totally ignore the many sources of lead that are much more bio-available than lead bullets, shot, or fishing sinkers. And you all should be very suspicious of any study that claims to use lead isotope analysis to determine that lead bullets are the major source of lead poisoning in eagles, raptors, or other birds. A large percentage of lead is recycled from various sources, which makes lead isotope analysis virtually useless. Lead has been mined, smelted, and transported all over the planet. And even with virgin lead, it would have to be known with 100% certainty that all of that lead containing a particular isotope analysis went solely to the manufacture of lead ammunition, and that no other source in the world contained that particular isotope from the natural decay of uranium into lead... a virtual impossibility. Remember, there are only four relatively stable isotopes of lead. The anti-lead ammo folks feeding you junk science won't tell you that.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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Originally Posted by BrentD
Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
So ........ is there a difference in lead toxicity to a "body" when it is implanted into tissue, as compared to it being ingested? Many people have been shot and have lived long lives with lead in their tissues, me included.

Absolutely! And even more so, for birds with a gizzard. Acidic digestive enzymes coupled with very fine mechanical grinding that hugely increases the surface area to interact with those acids makes a real one-two punch.

We have discussed this many times here.


To me, the issue is the numbers involved.
The relatively small amount of lead-bearing carrion doesn’t translate into a large number of affected birds. Wind turbines are a significant killer, but the lack of concern from the Greenies in favor of lead bans shows their bias.


“When faith is lost, when honor dies, the man is dead” - John Greenleaf Whittier
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Originally Posted by Tom Findrick
Originally Posted by BrentD
Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
So ........ is there a difference in lead toxicity to a "body" when it is implanted into tissue, as compared to it being ingested? Many people have been shot and have lived long lives with lead in their tissues, me included.

Absolutely! And even more so, for birds with a gizzard. Acidic digestive enzymes coupled with very fine mechanical grinding that hugely increases the surface area to interact with those acids makes a real one-two punch.

We have discussed this many times here.


To me, the issue is the numbers involved.
The relatively small amount of lead-bearing carrion doesn’t translate into a large number of affected birds. Wind turbines are a significant killer, but the lack of concern from the Greenies in favor of lead bans shows their bias.

Neither are significant eagle killers, on a national scale. As noted, the birds are increasing spectacularly, and undeniably. Trying to shift the argument to wind turbines is no more logical than claiming lead bullets, as currently used, is an eagle problem.


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Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
So ........ is there a difference in lead toxicity to a "body" when it is implanted into tissue, as compared to it being ingested? Many people have been shot and have lived long lives with lead in their tissues, me included.

It's effected your brAin....your entire day is spent on some forum.

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Good recent review of toxicity of lead salts here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4961898/

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