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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
No one has implied an intrinsic design flaw in Fox frames, and AFAIK no failure analysis with photomicrographs of the fracture edges looking for defect have been done.

It certainly appeared that someone was implying an intrinsic design flaw in Fox frames when someone made this comparison to Tobin frames:

Originally Posted by Drew Hause
and the 'oft posted Sterly

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Has anyone seen a similar crack in a Tobin?

I couldn't understand the motivation for posting all of these pics of cracked shotgun frames yet again, for the umpteenth time. Then Ted commented further with an accurate description of the often inappropriate loads that average hunter feeds his shotguns. And then the hysteria all came out in a reply to Ted's tongue-in-cheek comment about Googling “What loads should I use in my Tobin shotgun?” "Let me know what you come up with."

Ted got an answer with several copy-and-paste links that had nothing to do with correct loads for a Tobin. And he also got this comment:

Originally Posted by Drew Hause
As I said, if a vintage gun owner has no interest in researching his gun, that is his choice, as are the consequences of that choice.
You DO believe in personal responsibility, if not for ourselves, for our friends or children in approximation to us when we pull the trigger?

So it appears that all of the drama and photographic evidence of broken shotgun frames is born from a hysterical fear that our vintage doubles are a potential hazard than can disintegrate like a hand grenade if they are fired with the incorrect loads. And this fearsome hazard may even create a serious risk for "our friends and children in approximation to us when we pull the trigger"! And furthermore, the serious consequences of choosing the wrong shotgun shells may indicate a lack of personal responsibility on Ted's part... all because he related what sort of ammunition the average shooter buys and shoots. Shame on you Ted.

The facts remain. There is not, and has not been any serious or widespread problem with frame cracking in vintage shotguns. I mentioned earlier that around 220,000 or so Flues guns were produced before 1926. Almost 157,000 Fox Sterlingworth guns were built until 1940, along with a lot more higher grade Fox guns. And it appears that only a small handful of frames have cracked in those guns. In addition, I have not heard of a single shooter, or friend, or small child who was injured or killed when those few frames cracked. In fact, it appears that the Flues that was the subject of this thread was simply repaired with the addition of side plates, and was probably returned to service.

So while we are on the subject of personal responsibility, I feel it is irresponsible to post false and/or totally useless information about our vintage doubles. It seems that with all of these photos of shotguns with cracked frames, we don't even know the circumstances or what loads were used when they cracked. It could have happened with 3" Magnums, heavy duck loads, hot handloads, or 2 1/2" low pressure RST's. A horse could have rolled on the gun. We just don't know. It serves no good purpose to run around like Chicken Little shouting that the sky is falling and old shotguns are fracturing and blowing up. We already have enough misinformation out there about how deadly dangerous it is to fire any gun with Damascus barrels. For the average shooter, there is probably much more risk of getting hurt or killed in a traffic accident on the way to hunting or the skeet club, than getting hurt from using the occasional Super-X or Wally World promotional loads. Most truly knowledgeable guys here know by now that the major risk from using the wrong loads is causing damage to old stock wood, or causing the gun to slowly shoot loose. As I said before, the majority of these old doubles are still functional and safe to use after going on 100 years or more. Compare that record to the percentage of cars and trucks or appliances from the same era that are still serviceable and safe. The sky is NOT falling!


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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This thread started with a question regarding what is very likely a cracked frame Flues, and the discussion, and pictures, thereafter were relevant.

A.H. Fox Gun Co. made it very easy to choose loads; from the 1914 catalog courtesy of David Noreen. And shell boxes at WalMart still are marked by ounces and Dram Eq. Unfortunately, IMHO ignoring the shell length specifications is a problem. Bell's study was of 12g loads; there is no modern data for 2 3/4" 20g or 16g shells in short chambers; esp. regarding the 1 1/8 20g loads available today, like the Federal Premium Wing-Shok.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Here's Remington's, also courtesy of Dave

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Parker, Lefever & Hunter Arms Co. provided similar recommendations, and if one had the curiosity, the pressures of these loads are found here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/edit

I don't have a similar chart from a Tobin catalog, but Tobin did say the barrels were "warranted with all nitro powders where properly loaded ammunition is used" and it would seem to be reasonable to apply the load recommendations of the other makers

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

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1901 Ithaca Gun Co. ammunition guide

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

The 20g was introduced with the Flues model, and I don't have a catalog from that era. Possibly someone could check the 20g load recommendation? Keith has 4 20g Flues and might be interested?

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Circuitous twisting of what should be clearly understood statements aside, IMHO advising folks to use ammo that reproduces the ballistics of the load for which their vintage gun was designed, and as specified by the makers thereof, is quite reasonable, and might keep the users out of trouble. Of course, none of us can know what boomer loads were used by previous owners.
We're here to help wink

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Nice Flues tutorial by Researcher, an interesting exchange of letters regarding a cracked frame 10g, and comments by Miller and Larry
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=552092

I'm trying to find Greg Tag's cracked frame research - it must have been prior to 2007
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...mp;Board=1&main=6532&type=thread

Interesting thread with a sectioned 16g Flues frame
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=41484&page=1

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

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I’m not sure pressure, as a factor of the new smokeless ammunition, was well understood when it came into use. In an odd twist, I doubt the internet has helped that understanding advance all that much, for the run of the mill shooter. The manufacturers of ammunition grasp its importance, but, want to limit their exposure, and deliberately are vague about specifics. Most recent boxes of ammunition I have on hand, throw the term “Max” on the box, and call it good. The loads vary in pressure from lot to lot, and the manufacturers happily tell you that, but, are mum as to what a typical pressure level would be.

SAAMI ain’t your friend, if you are shooting an old gun. I’m sure they get far more complaints about light loads not cycling a recoil autoloader, then they do from guys with old guns that suffered cracks, either in metal or wood.

As to responsible use of the old guns, I think I might have been the only guy ringing the bell, here, and at other spots on the inter web thingy, that Al Gore Jr. invented, about Tobins with bent frames, and a suspicion with the culprit being modern ammunition.

Google it.

Best,
Ted

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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
Circuitous twisting of what should be clearly understood statements aside, IMHO advising folks to use ammo that reproduces the ballistics of the load for which their vintage gun was designed, and as specified by the makers thereof, is quite reasonable, and might keep the users out of trouble. Of course, none of us can know what boomer loads were used by previous owners.
We're here to help wink


It would appear that I am now being accused of "Circuitous twisting of what should be clearly understood statements" when nothing could be further from the truth. But such an accusation was quite predictable, as was the very triggered multiple responses that were made as a reaction to my post.

There was no need for any "Circuitous twisting". I stand by the clearly stated facts that:

(1) There is no widespread problem with frame cracking in our vintage doubles.

(2) There has been no internet chatter, news reports, warnings from ammunition manufacturers, or bulletins from the Consumer Products Safety Commission of shooters, friends, innocent bystanders, or small children being injured due to a rash of frame cracking in vintage double shotguns.

(3) And there is absolutely zero evidence of the root cause of the cracks that occurred in the shotgun frames posted in this thread. That includes the Ithaca Flues that was reinforced with makeshift sideplates, and is the original subject of this thread.

Originally Posted by Drew Hause
We're here to help wink

In addition, the frantic multiple responses to these facts are not at all helpful. I think it is safe to say that probably nobody here is using turn of the century shells loaded with powders like Shultze, Ballastite, Laflin & Rand Infallible, Bulk DuPont, E.C., or New Green Walsrode. That information is not at all relevant to the subject here. It hasn't been relevant for well over 50 years, and neither are the vintage advertisements. If the intent was really to help, then we would have been better served by something like current low pressure factory loads (which most of us here are already aware of), or confirmed and tested low pressure handloads. Even better would have been some effort to actually determine some of the facts surrounding the small number of cracked frames that occur, instead of conjecture and hysterical accusations about a lack of personal responsibility.

In one of the several links provided, I found it interesting that R.D. Show, who sectioned the cracked 16 gauge Flues frame shown here, mentioned that the material seemed harder at the juncture of the frame and standing breech. But this observation was purely subjective, and no Rockwell Hardness or other metallurgical testing was done. Again, there is absolutely no information about what loads were used when that particular frame cracked. So there is still no relevance or helpful information.

Even more interesting was the report from Ithaca1 early in this thread. Bill told us he has a 12 gauge Ithaca Flues with a cracked frame. We do have a very good idea what caused that particular cracked frame. He had both barrels discharge at the same time, probably due to insufficient trigger sear engagement caused by the broken rear trigger spring, and he was shooting "green Remington high brass express" shells.

The double discharge caused a hairline crack that was subsequently repaired, and he states the gun is still in service using sub-7k reloads. From that first hand observation by Ithaca1, we can indeed learn something. The rest... not so much. I'm pretty well versed in the use of RCA (Root Cause Analysis) as a means of determining the cause of machinery failures, and coming up with predictive and preventive maintenance, or engineering solutions. However, the use of WAG (Wild Assed Guessing), paired with totally unrelated copy-and-paste fluff, is not helpful at all. In this event, it merely adds to the already widespread belief that many of these old double barrel shotguns may be dangerous, and ought to just be hung on the wall at the local Cracker Barrel.

Take cover... Triggered Response incoming....


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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There is no mention of pressure in any turn-of-the-century maker's load recommendations, and I certainly agree that had shooters paid attention to those recommendations (and Western Cartridge had never introduced the Super-X loads) we wouldn't have images of cracked frames, or bent frame Tobins, or maybe even Long Cracked Smiths wink but I could be wrong.

This is Royal Gun Co.'s guarantee for the use of "proper and reasonable" loads

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Pressure data was not hard to find however. Sporting magazines eventually made it even to the wilds of western Minn. and Kansas, and were filled with warnings regarding the appropriate loading of the new fangled Smokeless Powders, which some ignored, with bad consequences, and the eventual warnings regarding pattern welded barrels

The Overland Monthly, Oct. 1895 “Smokeless Powder For Shotguns”
http://books.google.com/books?id=Wv0MAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA442&lpg
3 1/4 Dram Eq./40 grains DuPont Bulk Smokeless 1 1/8 oz. (1255 fps) = 7440 psi
3 1/4 Dram Eq./44 grains “E.C.” Bulk Smokeless 1 1/8 oz. = 7584 psi
Plus 10-14% for modern piezo transducer numbers
Too much stress cannot be laid upon the weakness that has been very prevalent to overload with nitro powders, and we admit that the temptation to the uninitiated and the misinformed to put in each shell, the same amount, measure for measure, as they have been accustomed to do with black powder is very strong. This is a great mistake and it would be well to bear in mind that in handling any of the nitro powders the shooter is dealing with an entirely different compound from the old article. To those who are as yet unfamiliar with the methods of handling and loading the nitro powders, if they will use common sense which is simply to read the directions that are plainly printed upon all packages of powder, and follow these directions as to the quantity without question, they will have no trouble with their ammunition...

Even the Sears catalog tried to warn folks

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

But we gotta pay attention shocked
Hatcher's Notebook, 1966
https://books.google.com/books?id=yESNUKSg5aMC&pg=PA184&lpg
“E.C.” blank powder burns with extreme speed…to give a sharp report when it is not heavily confined. An enthusiast once got hold of some of this powder, being familiar with “E.C.” shotgun powder…and loaded a bunch of shells. To try out his new load he got out his fine Lefever gun, and put up a target in the shooting gallery to get the pattern. There was a terrific detonation, and a big piece was blown out the side of the barrel near the breech, flew across the room and buried itself in a wood bench.

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It was not just the smallbore Flues frames that cracked. Here is a series of letters I picked up off ebay --

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Researcher points out that it wasn't just smallbore Flues frames that have cracked, as demonstrated by the correspondence between Ithaca Gun Co. Repair Dept. and Mr. Richard Biggs concerning a 10 gauge gun that cracked in 1932. It is important to note that The Ithaca Gun Co. Repair Dept. felt that this problem was not due to a defect in the frame, but rather that the gun was subject to some unusually high pressure or bursting strain. And there is no evidence that would support anything otherwise.

So we are still confronted with a small number of Ithaca Flues frames that cracked under totally unknown circumstances, except for the report from Ithaca1 explaining that it took a double discharge of High Brass Green Remington Express loads to cause the frame crack in his Father's 12 gauge gun. It appears evident that not only is the problem of cracked frames in Ithaca Flues guns a relatively rare occurrence, but that it probably only happened as a result of severe abuse in the form of incorrect loads.

Even with the steels available between 1908 and 1926, it is likely that Ithaca engineers probably could have designed and produced a shotgun capable of handling 2 ounce loads at 40,000 psi pressures, or more. But nobody would have bought it, nor would they want to carry it for hunting. Flues were marketed as lightweight hunting guns, and lightweight guns are not ever going to be over-engineered beasts intended for magnum plus loads. The Flues was seen as an improvement in design over the earlier Crass and Lewis models. It simply would not have remained in production for as long as it did, or sold in the numbers it did, if either the Ithaca Gun Company or customers of that era felt that it had some serious inherent design flaw. Dittos for the Fox Sterlingworth. Neither will ever be a London Best gun... nor were they intended to be.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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As observed, the letter was written in 1932. Until the 1920s, the heaviest North American factory loaded 10 gauge shells offered were 1 1/4 ounces of shot with 4 1/4 Dr. Eq. of smokeless powder in a 2 7/8 inch case. Of course the unknowing could have substituted Dense for Bulk powder, more than doubling the pressures.
The Western Cartridge Co. Super-X load Super-Ten shell with 1 5/8 ounces of shot with 4 3/4 Dr. Eq. of Progressive Burning Smokeless Powder in a 2 7/8 inch case was introduced about 1926. The Western Super-X Magnum-Ten with 2 ounces of shot and 5 Dr. Eq. of Progressive Burning Smokeless Powder in a 3 1/2 inch case was introduced in 1932.
The only pressure data I've found is from the DuPont Brandywine Experimental Station data cited by Charles Askins in 1933; note this is not for DuPont Oval but the earlier DuPont Bulk
10g 4 1/4 Dr. Eq. 1 3/8 oz. - 4.76 tons X 2240 = 10,662 psi + 10-14%

A Hunter Arms Co. Pressure Curve dated June 10, 1929 is in the McCracken Research Library, Buffalo Bill Center of the West and shows the 10g proof pressure but not 10g standard load pressures
http://library.centerofthewest.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/WRAC/id/8149/rec/107
The 12g 3” ‘Record’ with DuPont Oval and 1 3/8 oz. shot (presumed 1275 – 1295 fps) is shown at 13,250 psi + 10-14% so the 10g 2 7/8" boomer load was likely similar.

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