doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Ithaca Flues with side plates

I couldn't have said it any better Ted! Dead nuts accurate. Dewey was not one to mince words or sugarcoat facts, and he knows his subject matter far better than most in his profession.

I will say though, that the vast majority of Flues guns do not have issues with frame cracking. They did OK for a mass produced machine made shotgun, and most of the couple hundred thousand or so that were built are still functional. Many do tend to be much lighter than the later NID, but a lot of that weight reduction seems to come from thinner barrels and hollowed out butt stocks. I have 4 Flues 20 ga. guns that do not have cracked frames. Two of those were purchased very cheap as parts guns because the barrels on both are ruptured in the forend area. The barrel wall thickness at that point is very thin, and I would bet neither had ever been honed.

I've told the story about the younger brother of a good friend who routinely fired 3" magnum loads in his Dad's 20 ga. Flues Ithaca without any apparent damage. I'm sure he was not doing the bolting surfaces and stock wood any favors. A lot of vintage doubles have been heavily used with loads far heavier than what they were designed for. Many hunters strongly feel that bigger and faster is better, so a higher velocity load with more shot is their chosen load. Some guns are able to take that excessive punishment better than others. Some simply break, and end up as parts, or worse, having their pictures posted here, copied and pasted ad nauseam for all eternity.

From an engineering and design standpoint, it is hardly shocking to see shotguns with frames that crack at the 90 degree juncture of the frame and standing breech. But photos of those cracks really teach us nothing without knowing what loads were used, the metallurgy of the steel, presence of internal flaws in the steel, machining marks creating stress risers, etc. One cracked Sterlingworth frame proves exactly nothing.

Thanks again John.

I imagine one can break almost anything by overloading. A local gun shop has an exploded Ruger Blackhawk on display, right over the scales and loading manuals.

We've been discussing cracked frames, and cracked Sterlingworth frames (plural), since 2009 and I don't get why the image of one is so triggering. Unfortunately, the images here are mostly lost
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=145267&page=5

No one has implied an intrinsic design flaw in Fox frames, and AFAIK no failure analysis with photomicrographs of the fracture edges looking for defect have been done.

BTW: I asked METL to composition analyze 5 vintage double's frames and the results are at the bottom here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnRLZgcuHfx7uFOHvHCUGnGFiLiset-DTTEK8OtPYVA/edit

A c. 1929 Fox Sterlingworth frame was non-standard AISI 1020 with low concentrations of nickel (.07%) and chromium (.08%)
July 1, 1920 American Machinist published an Ordnance Salvage Board Surplus Property Sale of almost 75,000 pounds of “Spec. Shape Gun Steel” from the A.H. Fox Gun Co. with C .15-.25%, Mn .5-.7%, S & P < .06% = AISI 1020
https://books.google.com/books?id=ezRMAQAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA409&lpg

Hopefully this image won't give anyone the vapors Sent to me long ago by David Trevallion. A Fox HE with 2 3/4" chambers subjected to lots of 3" magnums. No one used this as evidence of a design flaw in the Fox top rib extension, but photomicrographs would have been interesting.






IMHO the take away from these images, lacking a failure analysis of each, is that guns should be used with loads for which they were designed. Pretty simple concept.

Exactly. Mauser actions are pretty stout, but shooters manage to break them as well.

Drew,
Pick any gun built around 1905. Any gun. Can you go to the store (that means a ‘Mart of some sort, in this part of the world) and buy the correct ammunition for it?

How ‘bout a decade ago? Two decades? Three decades? Four decades?

When you get off this board, say, speaking to a young father, and his kids at church, and the topic of bird hunting comes up, do you dive into the subject of “correct” ammunition for that task?

The subject weaves around a little bit. My Father, had you mentioned pressure in shotgun loads, would have been clueless to that term. Shotguns came in one gauge (12) as far as he was concerned, and you had a choice of 2 3/4” or 3”, up until 1991, when he got his SBE. His A5 was 2 3/4”. That was that. This was a guy who instructed sniping in the USMC. Not an amateur, just not too much more concerned about his shotgun loads beyond 2 3/4” and 3” and what size shot was loaded into them. He likely would have thought pressure meant recoil, and Vise Versa.

I don’t think that is unusual for the rank and file with a shotgun in their hands on the weekend, in the fall. The average guns you can get at the “store” are not sensitive to pressure, not at a level you would see in a factory loaded shot-shell, anyway. So, most of them aren’t going to know anything about that, unless they end up here. The topic came up at the firearms safety course my wife and son took together, but, it was way too brief, and not covered in depth. As you can well imagine, Damascus was evil.

There is a fair amount of knowledge that goes into the feeding of older guns. The consensus is not always universal on that subject, either.

Best,
Ted

The difference between when most of us started fooling with old guns, and today, is the internet.
If you google "What load should I use in my L.C. Smith shotgun?" the first link on the list is this
http://www.lcsmith.org/faq/loads.html
Knowing the author thereof, I think it, and the other FAQs, are helpful. And if the gun owner has more questions, the LCSCA Forum does not require any sort of registration.

We have this forum, and Shooting Sportsman, and Shotgun World.
And collector's forums for Parker, Lefever, Fox, and Remington shotguns.
Guys even post here looking for information about DARNEs!

Lots of (mostly good) information out there if someone is interested in looking, including documentation of turn-of-the-century loads
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/edit

But folks can do what they want...and do...sometimes with bad outcomes.

Google “What loads should I use in my Tobin shotgun?”

Let me know what you come up with.


Best,
Ted

Google moves links up based on the number of clicks.
Hopefully this will advance with time
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y52UbLaVsDAYd3BJLNTzTnqa7CzuhnbgonQzuYRuLvs/edit
Plenty of information here, just for the looking, and I give my email on the Home Page

Turn-of-the-Century Shotshells, Powder, Proof & Ballistics
Barrel Evaluation, Non-Destructive Testing & Load Recommendations

Shotgun Research
Belgian Shotgun Identification, Barrel Makers & Marks
A.J. Aubrey / Meriden Fire Arms
Tobin Arms
H.& D. Folsom, Crescent & Tradename Guns

This is not hard to find
https://www.shotgunworld.com/forums/shotgun-id-value.5/

The Baker Collectors site is not a discussion forum, but Daryl and Chris graciously provide their emails also
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PqK3UImDCrsOrk6O_2DsovHXvaNSzliSiwaP35Y6PMk/edits

As I said, if a vintage gun owner has no interest in researching his gun, that is his choice, as are the consequences of that choice.
You DO believe in personal responsibility, if not for ourselves, for our friends or children in approximation to us when we pull the trigger?

For instance
A post on the LCSCA Forum in Dec. 2014 regarding a 1906 No. 0 10g; barrel composition unknown by the gentleman:
I was at a farm where a guy I have known for a couple years came out with this L.C. smith. He first shot the gun with Federal Premium Vital-Shok 3 1/2 Inch Magnum copper-plated 1100 fps 27 pellets No. 1 buck (27 pellets of #1 buck is about 2 1/2 oz.). I still have the box and 1 live shell. He fired one shell out of each barrel with no problems. I asked if I could shoot the gun...and fired 1 shell out of each barrel.
I have never seen a gun this old nevertheless shoot one. I thought it would be cool to hunt with it. I'm guessing from your comment not such a good idea.