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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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It takes a ton of skill to be poor enough to avoid collector firearms of any type. I’ve spent a lifetime perfecting that skill.

Ask me about my 1100.

Best,
Ted

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Nudge Offline OP
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Never handled one of those...I'm also not clear on the difference between the 1100 and the 11-87, so please teach.

NDG

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Originally Posted by Nudge
Tom,

WOW, a member of LCSCA, no less. That's problematic. Especially if the seller is someone on who's word collector advice is dispensed. And the problem is, not everyone will know. I mean, I see a certain fallen 'engraving book author' quoted everywhere there is mention of a famous engraver, and I think to myself...even if he really did have true knowledge and expertise...how can one believe any of it without suspecting now? How much of what he wrote was just made up to make himself sound like an expert?

Between shysters value profit over reputation, and genuinely crazy people who covet forum thread notoriety..."Beans" is NOT the only one...

No Nudge, "Beans" is certainly not the only one who covets forum notoriety, and as a result, pure unadulterated crap gets repeated that can lead to naive people getting taken by fakers, counterfeiters, and upgraders. And unfortunately, fakes are not all that uncommon in the high grade collectible gun market. Look at the difference in the price between the $250,000 that L.C. Smith Topgun mentioned was bid up to, and the $15,000 it sold for after the facts were revealed. Quite a profit motive there. And quite a nasty hit on the widow who was selling it.

Just take a look at these statements that were made right here back in late July in the "Acier Cockerill" Thread:

Originally Posted by Drew Hause
A 20g Monogram completed March 16, 1912 surfaced in 2015 with 32” barrels stamped “Sir Joseph Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel/Made to Order” bearing the Whitworth trademark AND a second barrel with ‘2’ on the forend lug, the same SN on the flats, the Hunter Arms “Crown” stamp, clearly showing a ‘LLH’ on the left barrel; but which are also marked “Sir Joseph Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel”! (See The Journal of the L.C. Smith Collectors Association, Spring 2016).....



....It seems likely that Krupp licensed Cockerill-Ougrée, as Fluss Stahl Krupp Essen marked tubes stamped with “Acier Cockerill” or with “LLH” of Laurent Lochet-Habran are found on some U.S. maker's barrels.

Now why would anyone make that sheer conjecture stating that Krupp likely licensed Cockerill-Ougrée to produce tubes marked as "Fluss Stahl Krupp Essen" when they also had the Acier Cockerill or LLH touch mark???

And why on Earth would he make such an absurd statement only a few sentences after noting that there was a 20 ga L.C.Smith Monogram Grade gun that surfaced in 2015 that had a second set of barrels that had the L.C. Smith "Crown" stamp, the LLH stamp on the left barrel, and also are marked “Sir Joseph Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel”??? Are we to assume that Sir Joseph Whitworth also licensed LLH to produce barrels with his name stamped or engraved on them???... with zero evidence that ever happened???

I was going to comment upon this conjecture, that some here will swallow as pure Gospel, back in July. But I figured that my comments would likely be censored. Who knows... maybe they will be censored now, even if this serves as an example of how self-styled "forum experts" or shady dealers might propagate the notion that an obvious fake might be the real deal. In our "Woke" New World, it is much more important to censor the truth than it is to hurt some sensitive feelings by confronting obvious B.S.

Me... if I am contemplating the purchase of a high grade double, and I see both an LLH or Acier Cockerill touch mark, and either "Krupp Fluss Stahl Essen" or "Sir Joseph Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel" on the same set of barrels... I am going to put my checkbook away right now, and start looking at DNA under the fingernails evidence! I am certainly NOT going to assume that either Krupp or Sir Joseph Whitworth licensed a Belgian tube manufacturer to produce barrels with their name on them.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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Sidelock
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If there was true collecting and not hoarding there would not be such incidents.

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Originally Posted by Nudge
Never handled one of those...I'm also not clear on the difference between the 1100 and the 11-87, so please teach.

NDG

That is a collector type question. Not relevant, I’m afraid.

Next question.

Best,
Ted

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An 11-87 is different than an 1100 unless it is an 1100G3 then it is an 11-87 with 1100 marked on it. Does that clarify anything smile

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Well described, Sir- sad details indeed regarding a highly unscrupulous dealer- shades of the late Herschel Chaddick, although his favorite for frauds was Th Old Reliable, or so I have been told. I'm gping out on a limb, just "spitballing", but I am guessing that the "Defrauder" and his "Deffraudee" live in smallish Eastern Seaboarderin States- take you pick-- one solid reason for collecting and shooting Parker Trojans and L.C. Smith Fultons--dang near impossible to counterfeit, due to frame shaping differences--RWTF


"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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Nudge Offline OP
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I think in all this, the thing that surprises me most, is that there are apparently a not small number of artisans who are both HIGHLY skilled and HIGHLY unethical. I guess I would presume one's ego, alone, would lessen the odds of that. People who can make rare things generally desire the acknowledgement of that. I "get" it, profit is also a strong motive. All the same...

NDG

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