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"Almost as alluring as a Yugo that BSA XII."

That is a surprising remark coming from a gunsmith. We are obviously judging things from different points of view and apply different criteria.

Baker managed to make an action that can be made from flat stock, uses one single coil spring to power tumbler, trigger and give a rebounding action, and employs a safety bent to prevent accidental discharge.

In this you see a Yugo, I see genius. Doing more with less is an engineering ideal, or so I have read.

He is the same Baker that gave us the Lancaster 12/20, the Baker ejector, and numerous other patents that were employed by the big names without much recognition being given to the inventor.

Interesting that the Lancaster 12/20 comes from the same brain as the shotgun equivalent of the Yugo!

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Originally Posted by keith
Originally Posted by Konor3inch
My experience has been that more unites than divides fieldsportsmen but I find sweeping ill founded statements normally with a political bias alien to the common bond we share.

Variations of this comment have been used by Liberal Left gun owners for decades to justify their support and defense of anti-gun Liberal Left politicians. But the hard truth is that any gun owner who votes for and who supports anti-gunners is deceiving us when they claim we have some common bond. In reality, they are helping to pave the way for the erosion and eventual complete loss of our Gun Rights.

They all make the claim that their politics is based upon much more than being a single issue supporter of gun rights. But they never attempt to get their progressive Liberal Left politicians to modify their near universal disdain and hatred for private ownership of firearms.

I'm glad Shotgunlover took the time to explain how he lost his firearms certificate, and essentially lost his rights to own firearms, or to even lawfully dispose of them for a fair price. We could go on for days detailing similar abuses against law abiding firearms owners wherever progressive Leftists and Democrats rule. Smith & Wesson is now moving it's headquarters and operations to Tennessee because of new restrictive laws in Democrat Massachusetts.

I reject any foolish and dishonest notion that I share any commpn interest with those who are helping anti-gunners in any way, shape, or form. Accepting such lies only emboldens them to continue undermining us.

Don’t worry Keith I think you are the exception that proves the rule anything we may have in common regarding fieldsports is overshadowed by your ad nauseum political rhetoric.

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Originally Posted by Shotgunlover
"seem to consider yourself an authority on British fieldsports."

I never promoted myself as an authority on anything. Others, like Gough Thomas (with whom I had a long correspondence, Geoffrey Boothroyd (who wrote for a long time for my magazine), have documented the evolution of the British best gun. IT was developed for a specialised form of shooting which is not seen outside the UK, namely driven shooting. I have said that best guns are specialised for this type of shooting and expressed amazement that these implements, that do not fare well in what is called hunting elsewhere, were blindly copied when their patents lapsed.

I am also fascinated at how truly inventive British people, like William Baker are ignored by the proponents of "best". Baker's genius in simplicity is exemplified by the BSA Single XII but I have never seen it included in any list of great British guns.

Some craftsmen improved the basic types.Stefano Zanotti improved the basic Holland lock by giving it a rebounding feature and more efficient sears. He also reinforced the lump geometry. Perazzi improved the Boss system and made it almost infinitely repairable. Beretta took the boxlock and in the model 626 gave it an engineering refinement that surpasses the Anson-Deeley hands down. In view of these and other improvements and innovations it is a bit of a stretch for someone to say that British guns are "best". The evidence says otherwise.

All very interesting shotgunlover but fails to address your earlier mistaken contention that
“There is no British hunting over public land ,in other words none for the common folk”
I hope I have been of some use in enlightening you that this is not the case.
PS your name dropping of Gough Thomas and Geoffrey Boothroyd failed to impress I’m Scottish not American.

Last edited by Konor3inch; 10/04/21 03:32 PM. Reason: Addition
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Originally Posted by Shotgunlover
IT was developed for a specialised form of shooting which is not seen outside the UK, namely driven shooting.

No driven shooting outside the UK? They've made it illegal in places like Spain and Hungary??

Actually, as a young guy in Iowa, I participated in driven pheasant shooting. Practiced even more frequently in South Dakota. Differs from driven shooting in the UK in that both the beaters and the guns have shotguns. Works out fine as long as everyone remembers the "blue sky" rule. Occasionally we still do it on a very small scale: A couple hunters with dogs pushing through a field in the direction of a couple blockers with guns at the far end.

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Originally Posted by L. Brown
Originally Posted by Shotgunlover
IT was developed for a specialised form of shooting which is not seen outside the UK, namely driven shooting.

No driven shooting outside the UK? They've made it illegal in places like Spain and Hungary??

Actually, as a young guy in Iowa, I participated in driven pheasant shooting. Practiced even more frequently in South Dakota. Differs from driven shooting in the UK in that both the beaters and the guns have shotguns. Works out fine as long as everyone remembers the "blue sky" rule. Occasionally we still do it on a very small scale: A couple hunters with dogs pushing through a field in the direction of a couple blockers with guns at the far end.

A lot of syndicate shooting in UK follows the same lines, commonly termed walk one stand one. The guns on the day ,usually ten or twelve ,are divided into two teams and take turn in beating cover or woodland towards the standing guns. Any birds flying back or to the side thus avoiding the standing guns are fair game for those walking. Partridge driving in Spain and pheasant drives in Hungary mimic that available in Britain. Of course the root of Driven Game shooting in England was the Battue shooting of Germany and brought to England by Prince Albert when he married Queen Victoria.

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https://fieldsports-journal.com/index.php/article/pheasant-shooting---a-short-history

The Royal Shooting Party identified

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

King Edward VII At Sandringham, 1909


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About 15 years ago my family had a driven deer shoot on one of my farms. Farm is sitting on a peninsula, along the river, with 30-50 acre wood sections on three sides. Shooters were placed in the middle fields waiting for the deer to be driven out by the beaters. Deer were everywhere. They only drove two sections of woods and all the remaining deer were now in the last section. Some cousin made the remark with 23 deer dead that there was a lot of work ahead and thought adding more to it might not be wise. I’m sure the farmer was happy for 23 less deer to feed soy beans to, but would have been happier with another 20-30 killed. Took about three hours to clean up the mess and load up the gutted deer for the processor. By then deer were popping their heads out of that third section of woods.

That was the first deer drive in my family in almost 40 years. Deer drives were very effective way to kill deer in my youth. With near pestilence numbers of deer today drives are no longer needed to obtain deer. I know it would not last long but a 50% herd reduction would go a long ways to getting deer numbers under control and allow for better management. I can kill 75 deer on that farm, according to the state, but I am not allowed to do anything with more than the legal number of deer I am allowed to harvest. I won’t just shoot and waste so now I rent the deer hunting out and give them a discount on next years rent for every deer killed over 24. Kill less than 24 and the rent goes up next year. I don’t want hunters passing up every deer they see hoping for one prized buck. That just eats the farmer out of business. If they only knew 100 would be the magic number for both myself and the farmer. Still 30+ helps.

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Originally Posted by Konor3inch
PS your name dropping of Gough Thomas…failed to impress I’m Scottish not American.

Kristin Scott would have gotten my attention.

For the cover of the novel From Russia, with Love (1957), Fleming wanted a design incorporating a pistol and a rose. Boothroyd posted his own weapon to illustrator Richard Chopping for use on the cover: a .38 Smith & Wesson snubnosed revolver, modified by removing a third of the trigger guard. Boothroyd was questioned by police when a similar weapon was used in a triple murder in Glasgow… wiki

Bloody ‘ell.


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Be careful out there K3”. Maybe better to dip over to Dundee for a pint.

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Geoffrey Boothroyd was a real gentleman besides his love for the British side by side in all its variants he enjoyed ownership of his Winchester Model 12 and had a custom stock and forend made for it.He was very much a hands on gun expert with a great ability to pass on his enthusiasm for all things gun related.

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Konor,

You count as public land the zone between high and low tide. As you might have gathered what most posters here understand by that term is actual land, not a tidal zone. Like one poster above put it, he parks his car on public land, gets out and his license gives him the right to hunt right there. Can you name a piece of land in the UK where you can do that? Do what Americans call upland hunting on public land? The british way is that the right to pursue game belongs to the landowner or his assigns, which is the opposite of regarding regulated hunting as a constitutional right and game as a public resource. In some countries the right to hunt extends over unfenced private land too.

I cited Thomas and Boothroyd as authorities on the subject at hand. Thomas, in addition to being a gun writer, was a qualified engineer. Boothroyd collected and organized information on British gunmakers for more than fifty years. I do not know if Geoffrey was Scottish, but all the years we were in touch his home address was in Glasgow, you should be proud of that.

Last edited by Shotgunlover; 10/04/21 06:11 PM.
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