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Originally Posted by Konor3inch
My experience has been that more unites than divides fieldsportsmen but I find sweeping ill founded statements normally with a political bias alien to the common bond we share.

Variations of this comment have been used by Liberal Left gun owners for decades to justify their support and defense of anti-gun Liberal Left politicians. But the hard truth is that any gun owner who votes for and who supports anti-gunners is deceiving us when they claim we have some common bond. In reality, they are helping to pave the way for the erosion and eventual complete loss of our Gun Rights.

They all make the claim that their politics is based upon much more than being a single issue supporter of gun rights. But they never attempt to get their progressive Liberal Left politicians to modify their near universal disdain and hatred for private ownership of firearms.

I'm glad Shotgunlover took the time to explain how he lost his firearms certificate, and essentially lost his rights to own firearms, or to even lawfully dispose of them for a fair price. We could go on for days detailing similar abuses against law abiding firearms owners wherever progressive Leftists and Democrats rule. Smith & Wesson is now moving it's headquarters and operations to Tennessee because of new restrictive laws in Democrat Massachusetts.

I reject any foolish and dishonest notion that I share any commpn interest with those who are helping anti-gunners in any way, shape, or form. Accepting such lies only emboldens them to continue undermining us.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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Shotgunlover. I am surprised ,given your law degree, that you did not arrange to meet with the sergeants superiors to bring to light the way in which you were cheated rather than try to approach him directly. I’m sure the chief inspector or higher would have been interested to hear how the men under his command are dealing with the public. This would probably have resolved the matter in your favour with no need for any financial outlay.The fact that you were threatened with arrest partly on the basis of having a funny face must surely qualify as an example of “ in law there is more than what is written in the statute book “.I am equally surprised that you gave up on the matter when you were told the sergeant was unavailable and also that you failed to contact another RFD ,registered firearms dealer, to have the guns removed and subsequently sold.
All in all a strange tale but as you include detail of the second sergeants red hair ,Whaley’s gun shop and the fact that Diggory Haddoke resides in the area I’m sure that makes it all the more plausible for some of those reading your account.

Last edited by Konor3inch; 10/04/21 02:43 AM. Reason: Addition
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Originally Posted by Shotgunlover
SKB, I lived in England for 14 years, started my "shooting" career there. I left when the police refused to renew my shotgun certificate because I could not produce a written agreement showing that I had the shooting rights over some piece of private land. Public land did not count as no shooting is allowed there.

The certificate having lapsed, due to their delay, I was told that if I moved the guns out of the house to a shop to sell I would be arrested for illegal possession. A "kind" police sergeant agreed to buy my guns. We agreed on a price, he picked them and handed me a folded check. I did not look at it, he was a trustworthy police officer. The check was for a lot less than we agreed.

We each have our experiences in life. Mine lead me to smile when I read a comment attributed to Bob Brister "if you have not been diddled by an Englishman, you haven't lived"


As a lawyer you should be aware that there is no requirement in law in the UK to have any agreement ,written or unwritten ,showing shooting rights or permission over private land as a prerequisite to qualify for having a shotgun certificate. I fail to see how a person of good standing would be refused a certificate as that is quite unusual.
I think there is more to this tale than meets the eye and it maybe the case that the Chief Constable considered you unfit to possess and your subsequent experience with the sergeants who showed you little respect may reinforce that conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Shotgunlover
"Digweed is British, the end" but he shoots an Italian Perazzi.

The presenter uses the word "hunting" when it is actually shooting. British guns are probably best for "shooting" where the process is static. "Guns" (not hunters) are placed at pegs (another term indicative of the static nature of shooting). When moving from drive to drive guns are cosseted in slips and after the season they need a maker's once over.

Du Broff in an old Gun Digest article on the British shooting scene wrote that if there is any desire in a Briton to actively seek game by moving over land, this desire is quickly stamped out. In other words there is no true hunting in Britain, and is no wonder that the term hunting, when used over there refers to mounted fox hunting. For more on the difference between hunting and how it morphed into shooting see here:

http://oplognosia.com/?p=12552



Subjected to true hunting conditions these so called "best guns" will not last long. Try if you dare to drag a "best" over chukar terrain and see how well it lasts.

As for artistic merit, the assumption is that the British makers produced the most aesthetically pleasing guns. True if your aesthetic sense tends to Art Nouveau, a period that coincided with the development of the British gun used for static shooting.

There are other artistic trends. Arte Deco arguably produced a more modern and artistically more honest approach since it applied the "form follows function" principle in earnest. For more on this see here:

http://oplognosia.com/?p=9471

Setting the criteria and then delivering judgement is a well known debating trick used by the video presenter. Asserting that British wing shooting is the best in the world is that criterion, and naturally a British gun is best for that activity. But British wing shooting is not hunting. There is no British hunting over public land, in other words none for the common folk.

And that brings us to what we want be seen as and who we want to identified with. I am OK with the image of the farm kid dragging a Stevens 620, or a Winchester single shot while kicking rabbits out of a bush and carrying whatever I harvest by myself home to cook, rather than the lord who downs hundreds of birds in one day's shooting, touches none of them since there are pickers up for that mundane task, and certainly never cooks anything he shoots. The thought of being identified with such barbarity makes me cringe.

You seem unaware that the bulk of shooting in the British Isles consists of walked up rough shooting,wildfowling and pigeon shooting. There are numerous books available both modern and historical that would give you a clearer idea of sport here. If you consider driven shooting over a pegged line of guns the norm then you are woefully ill informed.
Your assertion that no public land exists for hunting fails to recognise the tidal wildfowling available over public foreshore and the existence of wildfowling clubs that caters to that interest.
I assume you are aware of the amount of British guns ill suited to driven shooting for example the good quality non ejectors and heavy 8lb plus 12 bore wildfowling guns all there to cater for the needs of the British hunter.
I have actively sought game for fifty years covering many a mile as have countless others here in Britain.
I suggest you take steps to become better informed and refrain from peddling stereotypes and gross inaccurate generalisations.
As regards how well a best gun will last I would suggest that it’s fitting will ensure that it lasts better than most and that dragging it through chukar country it’s external condition will be no worse than any other gun. I have hunted with my English guns through dense gorse and they are still in great condition. One gun is over 100 years old has never malfunctioned or indeed been serviced for over 20 years in my ownership.A friend regularly wildfowled with a Lancaster sidelock for many years on the inhospitable foreshore with no problems ,guns are for using and he certainly used his but looked after it. He certainly did not drag it through cover but then few sportsmen do.
There is a whole area of fieldsports that lies between the Lord ,now more likely to be a businessman,shooting driven birds in excess and the farm boy with his single barrel AYA cosmos it’s a shame you are unaware of that fact yet seem to consider yourself an authority on British fieldsports.

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Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
[quote=SKB][quote=Ted Schefelbein]


Did you drag your best gun to Olde Blighty to shoot the deer? Did you do this last year? Will you do it again, this year, or, next? Why not? 20 years ago, I inquired about doing some hunting in France. My hosts, gracious, but honest, informed me that while it might not be technically illegal, it might as well be. As gunmakers, they had to score an invite from a landowner, and they would have a day out, surrounded by strangers, and they might get a shot at a duck, or not. The event usually ended as a party, and the guest of honor was most often a large boar that had been hit by a car, or shot on a hunt, but, usually, hit by a car. The pigs were a huge nuisance in that part of France, and getting worse. There were fees, of course, but, those fees promised them nothing, save they would be on the property that day.

They considered themselves lucky if they got out every five years. They were well connected, opposed to say, mostly anyone else. I was dumbfounded at how few options there were to this, and how they expected to produce hunting weapons in a culture that had almost no legal public hunting available to the masses.

As long as you have a pile of money to give them, them being the landowners, local enforcement agencies, and whatever government perfunctory is standing with his hand out, you are right, you can technically hunt, in Europe. Sometimes. What we have, here, is hugely different. The situation in Europe is most certainly not improving.

Good guns are much like gentlemen. Where you find them. Already pointed out, the good gun that is walked up to a peg in a slip, might not be all that great sitting in a duck boat for 40 seasons. Yes, I know guys that do that with a gun, and it is not an English gun.



Best,
Ted

Ted, I've dragged a shotgun to Scotland several times to shoot driven birds. Also have done a few walk up days. The place where we shoot takes care of the necessary paperwork with the local police and sends me my certificate. One year, I took a Merkel sidelock. I forgot to specify, when I provided the information for my certificate, that the gun was a sxs and not an OU. So my certificate was incorrect. The driver waiting to collect us at the airport had the corrected version. But the young Scottish woman who asked me to open my case didn't notice the discrepancy.

I haven't gone now for 3 or 4 years. But I went on an annual basis for several years. And in spite of having completed the necessary paperwork with US Customs, I was held up every time by Customs on my return from the UK. The last go round, a Customs officer told me that he saw they'd run me through the process repeatedly, and said he'd make sure it didn't happen again. Haven't gone since, so I'm not sure whether the problem has been corrected. But never the slightest problem on the UK end.

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"there is more to this tale than meets the eye "

Well, let us see. As a financially strapped student i did not own my own property. I lived in a room in a house in which other students (studying accountancy, medicine and architecture, all professions requiring a spotless record for future employment). I lived in the same room, same house when I got my certificate. Come renewal time the police, and I am guessing this one, regarded my location as an insecure premises.

I hunted at a farm called Bury farm near Bedford. The farmer was the only one out of many I had asked who would allow me to hunt. Rabbits, pigeons and some times he would insist that I contribute to seagull cullilng. Cost was one pound per visit. And the police did ask for written proof that he would allow me to shoot there. Whether they had the legal right to do so or not is a moot point.

The guns in question were a Greener single shot, a Mossberg 410 bolt action with tubular magazine, a 9mm Glatt garden gun. Total value back then around 30 pounds. Spending hundreds, at best, to retain 30 seemed like a futile strategy. The check was for fourteen pounds.

I was not the only shotgun owner targeted by the Hornsey police. One of the refusals made it to County Court and the police were obliged to state the reason for exercising their discretionary power to refuse a certificate renewal. The case was mentioned in the Times Law Report I think. The owner had secure premises, a reason to own a shotgun, but the owner's brother who lived outside London had a criminal record and occasionally visited the applicants home, this was revealed in court as the reason for the refusal. The judge deemed it insufficient and the man retained his guns, but did bear heavy legal fees.

There was a silver lining to this cloud. It encouraged me to leave the UK, get employed by a major US multinational, marry a wonderful girl from Illinois, and eventually get into publishing a successful hunting magazine. Beats becoming a crusty London solicitor anytime.

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Stay out of Illinois

One thing to keep.in mind....most of these boZos don't know chit from Shinola.

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"seem to consider yourself an authority on British fieldsports."

I never promoted myself as an authority on anything. Others, like Gough Thomas (with whom I had a long correspondence, Geoffrey Boothroyd (who wrote for a long time for my magazine), have documented the evolution of the British best gun. IT was developed for a specialised form of shooting which is not seen outside the UK, namely driven shooting. I have said that best guns are specialised for this type of shooting and expressed amazement that these implements, that do not fare well in what is called hunting elsewhere, were blindly copied when their patents lapsed.

I am also fascinated at how truly inventive British people, like William Baker are ignored by the proponents of "best". Baker's genius in simplicity is exemplified by the BSA Single XII but I have never seen it included in any list of great British guns.

Some craftsmen improved the basic types.Stefano Zanotti improved the basic Holland lock by giving it a rebounding feature and more efficient sears. He also reinforced the lump geometry. Perazzi improved the Boss system and made it almost infinitely repairable. Beretta took the boxlock and in the model 626 gave it an engineering refinement that surpasses the Anson-Deeley hands down. In view of these and other improvements and innovations it is a bit of a stretch for someone to say that British guns are "best". The evidence says otherwise.

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Almost as alluring as a Yugo that BSA XII.

As the saying goes, "There's no accounting for taste"


http://www.bertramandco.com/
Booking African hunts, firearms import services

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Originally Posted by SKB
Almost as alluring as a Yugo that BSA XII.

Or an Oldsmobile.

Good to see K3” posting again. Thought maybe he got caught in a bad part of Glasgow and took a spinning Thai boxing kick to the head and forgot his user name and password.

Those of you dragging your arses off to work, have fun. Think I’ll just stay here and drink ( coffee) smoke (tobacco) and shoot starlings with a fancy German BB gun (Weihrauch). Read some newspapers too.


______________________________________
Sell some puts shortly too. Money for nuthin’.

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