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Argo44:

I really don't think the patent protection period would be extended unless an additional fee was paid?


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A&D Patent use #1 - plenty of authoritative books on the Box Lock....Wonder if those 1893 Reilly's had the Westley Richards "Drop Lock" improvement?

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/17947/lot/297/?category=list

THE FIRST ANSON & DEELEY PATENT 12-BORE BOXLOCK NON-EJECTOR GUN BY WESTLEY RICHARDS, NO. 5056 BUILT FOR JOHN DEELEY
The sides of the action-body engraved with the makers name in a scrolling banner surrounded by best foliate-scrollwork, the action flat stamped Anson & Deeley's Patent 1, the underside engraved The First Anson & Deeley Hammerless Gun Patented 11th May 1875, 'Safe' inlaid in gold, well-figured stock with chequered side-panels and border-engraved blued steel butt-plate, the oval engraved 'J.D.', horn-tipped forend with Deeley patent catch, the browned damascus barrels with game-rib engraved Westley Richards, 170 New Bond St., London
Weight 6lb. 12½oz., 14½in. pull (14 3/8in. stock), 30in. barrels, both approx. cyl., 2½in. chambers, proof exemption

Together with a facsimilie of the makers' records, showing that the gun was started in 1875 and completed in 1879, and described as 'Mr. Deeley's Gun'. The stock was originally recorded as 16¾in., but shortened to 14½in. at the time it was finished.

This gun is the first example of W. Anson & J. Deeley's patent no. 1756 of 11th May 1875, where the action is cocked by the fall of the barrels. William Anson was Foreman of the Westley Richards Gun-Action Department, and John Deeley was the Commercial Manager of the company. By 1877 Anson had left Westley Richards and was trading independently, doing so until his death in 1889. John Deeley remained with Westley Richards until his retirement, and died in 1913

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

1895 Alexander Blair with an A&D APUN - so something happened to extend the patent:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...2-3-4-quot--barrels.cfm?gun_id=101072757

Description:
A 12 Gauge patent Anson & Deeley boxlock ejector shotgun from 1895. It has a 30” browned Damascus nitro proved barrels with dolls head extension and a game rib. The rib is marked A. Blair 28 Gordon St. Glasgow. Modern London Nitro proof with the proper reproof marks from 2000, Modern proved for 2 3/4" (70mm) cartridges at service pressure of 850 BAR, Chokes at Improved Cylinder & Improved Modified. Scroll engraving and trace of the original case color hardened finish remain, Double triggers, Best quality walnut stock with traditional English straight hand grip, Splinter forend with Anson release, 15 1/4" LOP over a 1” leather covered pad, Cast Off 3/16” at face, 7 Lbs. 4 Oz. The shotgun is presented in a leather case with tools and accessories. The receiver flats are stamped with the Anson & Deeley patent and this gun is marked as the 7,724th made under this patent.. Alexander Blair resided at 28 Gordon St, Glasgow between 1884 and 1886.

Last edited by Argo44; 10/05/21 08:29 AM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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The greener I have is marked 225 pat.use serial number around 19000 1878 or 79 but also marker J brazier under the bottom plate and so is my 1886 greener mabey company's expand there business output by using outside company's who were set up in mfg. complete guns or just barreled actions in your Reilly expansion of output is there a new works mentioned? Or additional workforce?

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Thanks Parabola...it's odd how a collection of photos doesn't seem to have the smallest bits when you need them.


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Just like the guy in the Boer War or similar group photo will always have his hand clasped round the bit of his rifle that you really need to see to be certain of the exact model.

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Just to add a bit to this history for the record. Holland claimed in the above Perks trial that there was little demand for "ejector" guns until 1886. Here are three Reilly labels from 1884, 1885, 1886. "Ejector" doesn't appear until the last label - 1886 - labels and advertisements match history. (and you know what - I still don't like SxS ejectors to this day)

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 10/14/21 08:15 PM.

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This commentary decisively authenticated two historical questions and thus is important:
1). Did London build or market boxlocks? The answer is "yes." Starting 1880
2). When did "Ejectors" really become important as a marketing tool? 1886

Hope this helps UK gun history.

Last edited by Argo44; 10/16/21 12:02 AM.

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If we look at the title of this post, the original question was not did London "market" boxlocks. Neither was it about ejectors. " Moving the goal posts" in this discussion about UK gun history is not helpful but harmful.

This question at hand has been a topic of discussion for a long time and unfortunately it is not a subject that is easily decided as say a knowledgeable person of UK guns reading proof marks.

Many important issues are so important that they are only decided by empirical evidence by reasonable and knowledgeable individuals in a court of law and in a scientific environment; and this method is an established method that reasonable and knowledgeable individuals decide issues of importance elsewhere. This discussion to date has not decisively established that London gunmakers "made"( ".....that of procuring forged actions and barrel tubes from the trade, then filing or machining. boring, drilling, reaming, screwing and so forth required to "make" or build a gun or rifle during the period of about 1880 to 1950") boxlock shotguns and rifle with the exception of maybe Cogswell and Harrison. The Cogswell and Harrison exception is as a result as a member of the "gun press" of the day (circa 1900) recording what a principal of the Cogswell and Harrison firm stated about their workshop; however, there were no photos illustrating that boxlock gun production was being carried out in the workshop. This leaves the question are we to take what was written to be statements of a principal of the company to be absolute. It is known from the Cogswell & Harrison history published by later principals of the company (copyright 2000 by Safari Press), that Cogswell and Harrison had specific knowledge of boxlock guns through their extensive direct business interconnections with the Birmingham, England gun trade where boxlock (Anson & Deeley guns were developed and made daily); and it could be assumed by a reasonable and knowledgeable person that Cogswell & Harrison could have had employees in their London workshop gunmakrs that were Birmingham trained, qualified and experience makers of boxlock guns and rifles who could and did build/make boxlocks guns and rifles there.

We know that Mr. Harrison established somewhat nonconformist workshop methods in the Cogswell & Harrison that were not desired by the London trade such as less expensive ways of making parts and also the shoe lump barrel method of production on his best quality SLE versus using chopper lump barrels. So that he might also make boxlocks guns in his shop versus buying them directly from Birmingham could be in his business strategy and tactics.

To my way of thinking Cogswell and Harrison likely built some boxlock guns and rifles in their London workshop, but I have not in hand absolute proof that cannot be empirically disputed--which is what is desired.

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[quote=bushveld
We know that Mr. Harrison established somewhat nonconformist workshop methods in the Cogswell & Harrison that were not desired by the London trade such as less expensive ways of making parts and also the shoe lump barrel method of production on his best quality SLE versus using chopper lump barrels. So that he might also make boxlocks guns in his shop versus buying them directly from Birmingham could be in his business strategy and tactics.


[/quote]

Len Bull told me that while working at H&H, if you screwed up you were promptly reminded that you were not employed by Cogswell and F*#@!ing Harrison. I still chuckle when thinking about that story. Not desired practices by the London trade indeed.


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Let’s be honest….Who really cares what was desired by the “London trade”….if anything else, looking at the history of British shotgun making, and what we know now to be true and correct….the “London trade” has been found out to be a rather hypocritical bunch of snobs haven’t they? There were some absolutely amazing London based inventions, inventors and tradesmen, nobody is disputing that. Especially prevalent in the public domain (gun writers based in London) and in certain London based gun company brochures, a lot of them always looking down at the Birmingham trade as if they were inferior but all the while getting almost of their trade materials and complete functioning guns from the makers in the midlands of the isle. All on the hush hush. Pretty funny stuff.

I don’t think ANY of the Reilly “stuff” posted on this thread added anything of any real substance to the discussion.

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