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Sidelock
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Welcome TA. I grew up in Gainesville in the 1950's and know all about Live Oak. Would much appreciate seeing photos. To post them, you'll need to go to one of the free photo hosting sites....I use jpgbox.com....upload your photos to the site....then copy and post the code. Sounds daunting but not hard once you get into it. Gene


Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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The “laurels” , actually sheaths of wheat, have different meaning depending on who stamped them into the tubes. Actual proof house stamps refer to the level of proof the tubes were submitted to, and passed. You can think of it in the same terms as the old Sears catalog, good, better, and best. A single mark indicates standard proof, two is double proof, and three is triple proof, since 1923. The triple proof mark prior to 1923 was actually 4 sheaths of wheat, for reasons only the French will understand.

The standard proof is, by French law, the highest in Europe, and, really, all that was ever required.

Manufrance was a company that did in house proofing. From where we sit, today, I suspect it means absolutely nothing. Was a gun that got 4, or 5, or whatever number of marks, actually built of a better grade of steel, what was the actual level of proof, who documented that, and what can we learn from that documentation, are all very much open questions.

The proof house gave you exactly what you needed to know with their proof marks. Chamber length, 65 is 2 1/2”, 70 is 2 3/4”, what powder was used, mostly powder T, a modern, smokeless proof powder, since 1900, and metric dimension of the tubes, 9” from the breech, allowing you to measure if the bores have been tampered with. You can figure out what loads you should be using with just those marks. Guns proofed with semi smokeless powders S and J are really just older, the level of proof is right there with fully smokeless powder T. Light loads rule the day in lightweight French guns, and keep them enjoyable to use.

All the other marks are pretty much just boasting and advertising.

Best,
Ted

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ted, i think you are confusing the "sheaths of wheat" stamped onto the tubes of french guns by the proof house at saint etienne with the quality markings placed on the barrel flats (typically on one side only). proofs placed on each tube are the result of the testing....each tube by the proof house....the quality markings that T A S has inquired about are not the result of a proof test - they are, as you note "boasting and advertising"....as such they do not require marking on each side of a sxs....v series darne's exhibit a plethora of the circular quality markings....those correspond to the 5 laurels that T A S inquires about.

only photo i can quickly locate that provides an example, see third picture

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=587625#Post587625


"it's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards."
lewis carroll, Alice in Wonderland
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The only sheaths stamped on the flats of a Darne come from the proof house at St. Etienne. Since 1965, officially, and for many years prior, unofficially, a Darne typically was triple proofed. The circular marks stamped on the flats of a Darne mono block identify the grade of gun. The proof house has nothing to do with them.

There was a time when it was common to proof individual tubes for Darne guns at the proof house, prior to making up a set of barrels with them.It was called provisional proof. But, most Darne guns built since the war bear the crossed lightning bolts on the flats indicating it was proofed as a finished gun. If there is a Darne gun that bears just one of those marks, I haven’t seen it.

The sheaths stamped on a Manufrance gun that has been privately proofed look suspiciously similar to official French proof house markings.

Best,
Ted

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Boxlock
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Originally Posted by T. A. Scott
What doe the "laurels" imply. I've seen some with 4 or 5 laurels. Mine has 5 and I would like to know what it means. I have a Manufrance Ideal 16Ga 1925 SXS and would love to post and get feedback. This is my first comment, so I am new to this..


url=https://servimg.com/view/19398966/64][Linked Image from i91.servimg.com][/url]
[Linked Image from i91.servimg.com]

Salut,
En 1899, la MF met au point son acier Hercule.
Suivant la qualité et la finition des canons, ceux-ci seront estampillés de 1 à 5 palmes.
Les 2 documents ci-dessous vous donnent les inscriptions que vous devez retrouver sur votre canon suivant le numéro de modèle.

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Sidelock
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Excellent Fab....Merci:

(Translation of Fab's comment:
"In 1899 MF developed its 'Hercules Steel.'
Afterwards the quality and finish of the barrels, were stamped with from 1 to 5 palm fronds.
The two documents above give you the inscriptions/stamps found on your barrel following the model number"


Note: The "IDEAL" models referred to above, (9EE, 12ECF, etc). can be dated a bit per this chart of IDEAL models previously published on the dating early French shotguns line; check your model number and you'll be able to identify the years it was built

For instance Nr. 6 on Fab's chart "8E..." was built from 1925-30..with following stamps (see chart for placement at "x"):
a - PT 2 couronnes - foudres (on water table: PT Powder under 2 crowns -double proofed chambers?)(edit - Fab500 established that "Foudre" - lightening - is the in-house proof of La Manu; it has nothing to do with chambers)
b - 2 palmes St Etienne (on barrel: 2 palm fronds ie double proof with St Etienne)
c - PT 2 couronnes - foudres - normal - (on front part of the barrel flats: PT powder, 2 crowns - normal chambers - 65 mm)
d - calibre - demi-choke - (on water table: gauge/bore/cal + 1/2 choke)
e - Pression 1100 kg - (on right barrel flat in front of Manufrance logo: tested pressure 1100 kg)
f - Acier Hercule trempe 5 palmes - (on left barrel flat in front of Manufrance logo: Hercules Steel hardened to 5 palm fronds)

Two new French gun terms for me - both added to the French-English, English-French vocabulary line:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=480959
-- Trempé (past tense from verb Tremper) - possibly "case hardened"? (verb normally means to "soak"
-- Foudres - Chambers??: normally a "foudre" is a large cask or barrel for aging beer or wine etc. (edit - Fab500 established that "Foudre" - lightening - is the in-house proof of La Manu; it has nothing to do with chambers). See the French-English vocabulary line.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 04/11/21 09:53 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Sidelock
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Excellent information on that chart, answers many Manufrance questions. Gene, trempe’ does refer to hardening, both color case and the French gray version.

Best,
Ted

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[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Chasing Jean Falla and stumbled on this example which Alan notes as having the Galand Nose<< or „Fermeture Liègeoise“.

http://littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20e%20f/a%20falla%20gb.htm

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

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Sidelock
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Damn, that is a good looking continental gun.....

Best,
Ted

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Sidelock
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I concur 100%; Cheers. Nothing short about it.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

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