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NCtar...haven't a clue. There are strange markings...16 ga Saint-Etienne proofs with the laurels without the crown an "TVT" x2 between them. Did another company reserve the right to proof-mark their guns in Saint-Etienne like Manufrance? It's possible. (then again, reverse the photo..that might actually be "MF" supplanting the arrows from before). But, there is not much on that gun which is familiar. Maybe Raimey can recognize something

FTOUTACIER. is BS....Tout Acier (all steel). The seller could do a better job of posting photos. Why it is labeled "Berger" is a mystery because there's no hint of Berger & Freres on the pics. Crap job of salesmanship for a historical gun if you ask me.

To all - "Helice" is a misnomer. It has no physical meaning. If you are referring to the reverse screw Verney Carron key patented three times with variants of the "Helice" name...that is not "Helice." You'll have to say, "VC patent" or something to be correct.

(Oh heck.."Forimica" is now "plastic counter tops." "Xerox" is now "photo copy." So just call it "Helice" (if your are actually referring to the VC key) .. (but be careful because there are a lot "Helice" out there which have nothing to do with the VC patent and are just advertisements. The name was never patented).

Ted, Larry, WC - any help? Look at those proof marks!
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 01/14/21 12:44 AM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
ellenbr #589956 01/14/21 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ellenbr
Looks to have the >>Galand Nose<< or „Fermeture Liègeoise“??

Acier Mandrine (Mandrel Steel) (Mandrine means "turned on a mandrel or lathe"; un Mandrin is a Mandrel; Mandrine is an adjective modifying the feminine noun Acier)

Acier is masculine.

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I don't know why people selling foreign doubles can't give us a good, clear photo of the barrel flats and what's immediately in front of them. Answers a lot of questions. I'm drawn to that "Helice" 16 with the small round knob and plume rib. Don't know what the MM means. Can't say I've ever seen "toutacier" before, and don't know what the F in front of it means either. Were I looking for a French 16 and had that one in my hands to take a better look, do some measuring etc, I might take a chance on it. Price, I think, is maybe a bit on the high side.

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Larry, what is a plumed rib? That is a term I've never heard. I don't see enough of that rib to tell see anything unusual about.

Round knob? You mean the grip?


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BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Looks badly refinished. Bad enough that I don’t want it. That hole in the front wood is something that one sees on European guns, I always wonder if they got stuck on a pintle on a blind or a duck boat at some point?
Larry there are way better guns out there then this one.
Brent, ed will tell you all about French ribs, if you ask him.

Best,
Ted

Argo44 #589991 01/14/21 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Argo44
Can't offer much:

The usual:
-- Saint-Étienne guild gun;
-- 18.4 = 12 gauge.
-- 65 = 65 cm (2 1/2 inch chambers - "normal for France after about 1925).
-- Single proof

Poids (weight) (with "pression") 1 kg. This is the pressure it was proofed at. I don't know when this started in Saint Etienne but surely in the 1920's... You will recall Buckstix's "Cape Gun" or "Combination Gun" in the below line that we dated to 1930-31 had Pression 1100 Kilos (double proof by Manufrance).
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=587568&page=1

Barrels likely are J. Meunier - address in Saint Etienne in 1951 listed as:
Meunier, 7 rue Jean-Baptiste David ;

Standard barrels on a French Saint-Étienne gun are 27 1/2". This is 27" - if cut..it's a bit.

Perhaps the logo is his - I'll file it away and at some point might confirm it:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

The Serial number is 567 - whoever made it didn't make a lot.

There is no retailer listed around the trigger guard...so not a high quality gun I don't think.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Acier mandrine - is just an advertisement. Really means nothing.

It has the inverted screw Verney Carron key.....now for convenience called "Helice" though that term is a false one.

I'd date if for no particular reason either late 1930's - just before WWII - of just after late 1940's. - possibly WWII trophy?

Some of the other marks are strange, Will research them over the next couple of days.

by no means am i admiring the gun...in it's condition it is no prize, and i tend to agree that it is priced quite a bit above its likely value - but there's nothing unusual about that...

my primary interest is related to the proof markings...and the fact that some of them are not what i am accustomed to seeing on typical st-etienne guns...i question your reading of the proofs on the water table...under the right barrel it is marked "pression 850"...which during the discussion re: Buckstix's cape gun you posted information provided you by fab500 that shows that MF arrow(s) are in-house symbols equating to 850 -1100-1300kg markings by the government proof house....and i will advance my belief that they are also directly related to the stamping on each tube of a gun (forward of the flats) with the st-etienne with one-two-or three fronds.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=589110#Post589110

under the left barrel is stamped "poids 1 kg 330"....this is the mark that i have never encountered on a french gun....but it is the mark on every belgian gun...it means the barrel set as completed weighs 1.330kg (2.92 pounds)...and in my opinion has nothing to do with the proof testing....what it does do is give a very precise measure of the weight of the barrel set - as built....it's always expressed to three decimal points and could easily be used to establish if the barrels have been cut off (as i suspect these have been)....and might be sensitive enough to detect the honing of the bores....so it is potentially a very useful bit of information to help track alterations on the barrels.

but it looks very strange on a french made gun without any other belgian proofs that i can see.


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Thanks Tom; very interesting observations and I now see the "Compression 850" mark. Every time you post we learn something. Thanks.

I must admit that I had never seen those marks on the barrel (1.330 kg) and your explanation is excellent. Wonder if they were purchased in Belgium then proofed in Saint-Etienne. The Stephenois were complaining about Belgian competition from at least 1878...I translated a letter by Didier-Drevet to the Saint-Etienne press in 1880 after a world's fair to this effect. Raimey should be along shortly to comment.

Traditional French checkering is the "basket weave style" like this on my "Wonder."
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

I'm wondering when the French went to the easier checkering as on this gun?

Again thanks. Gene Williams

Last edited by Argo44; 01/14/21 11:38 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Just to clarify (since I got confused)....we are talking about two different guns on this line.

1) A 12 gauge SxS 12 bore, Saint Etienne. It is possibly missing a forward section of the barrel. And it has some Belgian marks on it as Raimey and Tom both commented. Here are the proof marks and there are some strange ones I'd never seen (circle with a "C 1 2" in it, for instance) (and "Forage" - barrel drilling - D 1/2") - so much so that I made copies of them for my notebook:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

2). A 16 bore "Berger" "Helice" with the "Frond M M Frond" proof and no Belgian marks at all that I can see. Whew - might need another vodka tonight.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 01/15/21 01:06 AM.

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What doe the "laurels" imply. I've seen some with 4 or 5 laurels. Mine has 5 and I would like to know what it means. I have a Manufrance Ideal 16Ga 1925 SXS and would love to post and get feedback. This is my first comment, so I am new to this..


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welcome to the site....it is my go to place for french gun information especially.

many of the french makers used some sort of in-house symbol that denoted the relative quality of their guns....usually festooned on the barrel flats. darne used a round "pointcoin" (sp?)....charlin used both a bird (swallow?) and in some cases a hare (rabbit)....and manufrance used a frond (or laurel). the more of these stamps there are indicates the relative quality of the gun....as judged by the maker. high grade darne's in particular will have quite a number of their quality stamps.

from memory, manufrance used as many as 7 or 8 laurel stamps....but 5 does indicate a fairly high level of quality...don't think i've ever seen more than that outside some really impressive high art guns. what grade is your ideal? should be marked on the bottom of the action body....as per information found here, serial numbers for 1925 production are 51,088 to 53,896....and the grades that were catalogued that year were 1 - 2 - 2S - 3 - 3S - 4 - 4S - 5 - 5S - 6 - 6S - 7E - 8E - 9EE - 9

please post photos of your ideal....good clear shots of the proofs on barrels and action flats will be useful in answering your questions....and, i'm sure that several of the crew will be along shortly....james, ted, gene and others

best regards,
tom


"it's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards."
lewis carroll, Alice in Wonderland
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