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buckstix,
Once this thread has run it's course and everyone moves on, I think it would be very informative iv you started another thread under "German and Austrian Sporting Guns" about your two Vogel Bueschen, and loading for them.
Mike

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Originally Posted By: Argo44
That Sir....is excellent research. The shot spreader pattern from 25 yards to 12 yards is dramatic. The slug pattern indicates that it indeed was meant to be used with both shot and ball.

Hello Argo44,
Thanks for your reply.

Wouldn't it be nice if some of the nay-Sayers admitted that they learned something new?

Originally Posted By: Der Ami
buckstix,
Once this thread has run it's course and everyone moves on, I think it would be very informative if you started another thread under "German and Austrian Sporting Guns" about your two Vogel Bueschen, and loading for them.
Mike

Hello Der Ami,
Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I can do that. I actually had 3 at one time, but found a fella that wanted to buy one, for more money than I wanted to keep it. So, I sold him the one at the top. The heavy one.




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I guess I am a naysayer. One thing I did actually relearn (anything I ever learned about Manufrance was accidental, while trying to learn something about sliding breech guns) is some Manufrance guns did not make a trip through the proof house, and I see no evidence that this gun was government proofed. It would have had the metric measurement of the chambers on the flats, and another key feature noted, Raye Supra rifling.
It has neither. Proof in France was not compulsory, but, for the very most part, it may as well have been. I was told by the proof house master in Saint Etienne that the proof house markings would always tell you everything you needed to know about loading for a gun that had them.

I still don’t believe this is a cape gun. If anyone has evidence otherwise, I’d love to see it.

And, I still believe that, at best, it a compromise gun, built for someone who has little choice in what he can own and carry. At 25 yards, I own shotguns that will pattern buckshot or slug groups that will be superior to the slug pattern shown for hunting big game at that range, out of standard bores and chokes. At 25 yards a lot of shotguns will print better results than what you have shown, above. But, I’d still prefer to be armed with a high powered rifle over either, as a deer at 25 yards distance from a human isn’t usually there very long. Americans are blessed in that they can own either, and make a conscious decision about what they are going to hunt that day. The combination gun thing appeals to few, here. Perhaps you can work that 6” or so group, at 25 yards, down, using a light gun with a single bead sight.

If that was my game (it isn’t ) I have half a dozen better, simpler, and easier options on hand. Just for giggles, you could try running three rifled slugs through the other barrel, and post the results. I would not be the least surprised if it actually works very well, or, even better than what you have shown.

Glad it works, hope it works well for you.

Best,
Ted

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Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
" ... I guess I am a naysayer. ... "

" ... I still don’t believe this is a cape gun. If anyone has evidence otherwise, I’d love to see it. ... "

" ... And, I still believe that, at best, it a compromise gun, built for someone who has little choice in what he can own and carry. ..."

" ... At 25 yards, I own shotguns that will pattern buckshot or slug groups that will be superior to the slug pattern shown for hunting big game at that range, out of standard bores and chokes. At 25 yards a lot of shotguns will print better results than what you have shown, above. But, I’d still prefer to be armed with a high powered rifle over either, as a deer at 25 yards distance from a human isn’t usually there very long. Americans are blessed in that they can own either, and make a conscious decision about what they are going to hunt that day. The combination gun thing appeals to few, here. Perhaps you can work that 6” or so group, at 25 yards, down, using a light gun with a single bead sight. ..."

" ...If that was my game (it isn’t ) I have half a dozen better, simpler, and easier options on hand. Just for giggles, you could try running three rifled slugs through the other barrel, and post the results. I would not be the least surprised if it actually works very well, or, even better than what you have shown.

Glad it works, hope it works well for you. ..."

Best,
Ted

Hello Ted Schefelbein,
Thannks for the reply.

I guess I can only agree with your first sentence. You "are" a nay-sayer.

As to not believing this is a Cape Gun, and wanting to see evidence otherwise, you might try reading a dictionary ... "Cape Gun, noun phrase, Origin, English, A type of double-barrelled firearm, usually with one barrel smooth-bored and the other rifled"... and given that simple definition, it is not my intention to recruit you to agree.

Whether you call this a Cape Gun, or a Combination Gun, or a Ball & Shotgun, or a Shotgun with one rifled barrel, or whatever wiggles-your-wang, my OP was simply to learn about the proof marks - to which you have contributed absolutely nothing.

As for my 25 yard target tests, this distance was merely a starting point for testing - not intended to define a hunting range, nor to recommend the gun for such. If the deep snow at our Gun Club would have been plowed out to the 50 yard range, I'd have started testing at that distance.

As to your comment; "The combination gun thing appeals to few, here" - maybe not to you. Perhaps for this reason you should have kept your "expert" thoughts to yourself and posted elsewhere. The heading to this Forum includes "...to discuss your doubles, drillings, combination guns..." Also, every Gun Forum on the internet has a section on Combination Guns, with thousands of posts about them, and the collecting of them. These like other firearms are an interesting piece of History to many, of a time when such guns were actually used. So I guess this combination gun thing DOES appeal to more than a few. A simple search will reveal that I have posted about several of my Cape Guns, and Paradox Guns, and Shot & Ball Guns, and many, many have found them appealing.

Others who have followed my many posts on various Gun Forums know my background is in Analytical R&D Engineering. This quest for knowledge has spilled into my firearms interests, which leads me to the testing of Historical Firearms, and the documentation of the results, for myself and for others who may have interest.

So far, you've referenced some of your experiences, lets see your data! Lets see your targets. Lets see the loads that you have developed. Lets see something, anything, besides your written opinions. I searched your posts and found 298 pages, but no real data.

I want thank all those others who have given me interesting information about this gun. I truly appreciate it. I'll post continuing results of my testing soon.

As for your having "have half a dozen better, simpler, and easier options on hand" ... so do I.


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You weren’t paying attention, I guess. I pointed out your gun wasn’t proofed at the proof house in St. Etienne. Further, the mark “Raye” is really incorrect. It is Raye Supra bored. A Manufrance collector might know that by the model number, but, that might not help a guy on an actual cape, trying to use the gun. You don’t have to like it, but the information on the flats of your gun is incomplete and inaccurate. The proof marks that go on the gun when it has passed official government proof are easily researched, and never vague. I don’t find that to be the case on your gun, and, it would seem you don’t, either.

You’re welcome.

If you are going to rely on a dictionary for your definition of what constitutes a cape gun, what do you need this board for? What does your dictionary say an assault rifle is, and, does anyone believe that? Actually, Raimy got it right, better sights would almost have to be part of the equation for someone to consider a gun a cape gun. If it was to truly be versatile that would be a necessity.

I imported a grand total of one slug gun from France, in 20 years of doing that. If there are “many” interested in them, they weren’t opening their wallets to show that. Nobody wanted a rifle on one side, or, a double rifle, or Supra rifling, either. I didn’t sell that gun to you, either. That gun was regulated with Federal rifled slugs to 70 yards, had actual rifle sights on it (the back one folded down for bird hunting) and put two holes on either side of a 2” black spot on the paper, perhaps a bold inch away from each other. Minute of baseball at 70 yards, not minute of watermelon at 25. The gun was choked IC and MOD, and threw wonderful patterns at normal bird gun range. Load development was done with the ammunition the owner of the gun had easy access to. Seems sensible to me. In fact, that is the only thing I would consider doing, develop the gun around a load. I’d love to say the guy who ordered it still had it, but, it went down the road, and nobody ever asked about another.

Enjoy your gun. Not naysaying, either.

Best,
Ted

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Hello Ted Schefelbein,
Thanks for your reply.

I think it is "you" that's not paying attention. Let me repeat, I didn't come to this site looking for "your" confirmation of the definition of a Cape Gun. The gun "is-what-it-is". I enjoy adding a unique firearm to my collection. I find it interesting. Others may - or may not.

I find it hard to believe your claim that a Company like Manufrance, who made hundreds of thousands of guns, would have inaccurate and incomplete markings. You've now mentioned twice, what marks this gun doesn't have. How about a detailed translation of those 20-odd marks it "does" have. I might find "that" useful. I've taken the time to take a lot of pictures to show the marks on this gun. Lets see some of your pictures of the marks it doesn't have. I might find "that" useful.

I'm very impressed with your vast experience with "one" slug gun from France. WOW ! "minute of baseball at 70 yards" - compared to "minute of watermelon at 25 yards". Now there's a snappy "one-gun-guru" technical comparison. Lucky I didn't start my testing at 50 yards. It might have shown "minute of bushel basket" in those first TEST targets.

As for French guns, I have a few French Double rifles in my collection. I even had a French Darne 20ga once. I found the "mouse-trap" feature very unconventional and impractical for actual bird hunting. I sent it down the road, quickly, and never asked about another.

For all the "other" Forum members, I'm hoping to get to the range to do some additional load development later in the week. I'll post the resulting targets.


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Bonjour tout le monde,
Je suis français et je ne parle pas anglais.
Je pense que le document que je vous ai envoyé pourra vous aider.
La MF avait un banc d'épreuve de 1926 ŕ 1960.
Bonne soirée.

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Merci Fab500, et bien venue. Nous avons décidé que l'arm avait un banc d'épreuve de 1930-31. Il y a un livre avec un bilan avec le numero de model et les années de leurs production...ci-dessus.

Et je voudrais savoir comment on peut ajouter un poste sur passionlachasse.fr. J'ai développé un méthode pour daté les fusil de chasse de Saint Etienne des premier decades du XXth Century. (Pardon le Francais, je peut parler mieux).
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=484199

Gene

Ici, on peur voir notre dictionnaire des terms Français-Anglais pour les arms de chasse.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=480959#Post480959

Last edited by Argo44; 01/04/21 08:22 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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fab500 forwarded an article on the Manufrance Proof House which clarifies the proof mark arrows above.

1). As speculated, they are indeed for a Manufrance run proof house
2). They could only be used on guns sold within France. The Official Saint Etienne Proof House was the only one recognized abroad.
(there are metallurgy terms which I have a hard time with - welcome help).

Here is the article with a rough translation:



These proof marks are deliberately quite different from those of the Official (Saint Etienne) Proof House in the way that they have an unequivocally distinctive character

Furthermore, the Manufacturer (MF) decided to make a new proof mark at 1300 kg exceedingly hard, which was reserved for models of very high-priced Ideal guns.

In the process, the preliminary proof of single barrels was replaced. In effet there was only the proof of the finished arm, clearly of benefit to the clients. Moreover, as the manufacturer fabricated his entire gun including the barrels the preliminary proof marks which normally separated into respective responsibilities for the barrels and the gun itself, no longer had a reason to exist.

Regarding the regulation process of the Proof House of the Manufacturer, it is exactly identical to those of the official Proof House for which the Manufacturer besides contributed to a very large extent.

It is necessary however to note that the guns intended for export had to be presented to the Official Proof House, the only one recognized abroad.

The choice of a “super-proof” at 1300 kg, required once again that the Manufacturer, reconsider the choice of steel used for creating the action. It is a steel made of “NY d’Imphay” (??) where 5 CD of “steam hammer” (“Creusot”?)?? at 5-6% of nickel which was chosen; the qualities of that steel allowed the reduction of the cost of fabrication since the metal is initially only annealed (“recuit” – new word for the dictionary unfortunately now locked), it is subsequently machined (usiné – another new word) then case-colored hardened at 720-750 degrees celsius to give it its final appearance.

New words for the dictionary:
NY D'Imphay? - (some alloy I would suppose)
Creusot? - stream hammered of some sort?
Recuit - annealed
Usiné - machined


Last edited by Argo44; 01/04/21 08:18 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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