doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com NEED HELP - proof marks on a French 16x16 Cape Gun

Buckstix; Why not try fabricating a couple of those slugs as illustrated on the English site above and comparing them with a similar charge with ball - shot from your right barrel. I understand rifled slugs on standard modern shot gun smooth bore slug barrels don't really rotate yet can put in a 4" group at 100 yards.. Still it would be interesting to look at ball and slug groups from your "raye" barrel per the English post above.

Also for history, I'd love to see patterns from that same barrel in say #6 shot. and compare them to your left barrel. Sounds like the research proposed by Ted would be interesting to all. Gene

Hello Argo44
Thanks for the reply.

Unfortunately I'm very reluctant to put much credence in what Ted Schefelbein had to say, based on his earlier post where he stated very matter-of-factly; " .... Raye barrels are NOT intended for slugs. ... " The last paragraph in your translation of the French publication clearly stated; " ... The (shallow) rifling. For the dispersion of shot when firing at a short distance and for the shooting of ball, ..."

I especially like the line that reads; "... it’s worth noting that certain barrels, meant for firing ball, were rifled from the exit of the chamber, along the entire length of the barrel. What happiness for a collecter to come upon such a rarity. ..."

This leaves no doubt that rifling the full length of a bore was meant for shooting ball. I really appreciate that info.

I've found on many occasions that information on various forums is solely based on opinion, rather than actual fact from field testing. Coming from an R&D Research background, I always try to stick to tested facts, rather than conjecture and opinion.

Interestingly, my Thomas Bland Paradox 12 bore also has shallow (invisible) rifling, and my tests have shown that it performs equally well with both shot and ball. "Ball" meaning the 790g bullet that I cast from the mold that is numbered to / and came with the gun. Thomas Bland advertisements from the period did not refer to this as a Paradox Gun, they called it a "Rifled Ball & Shot Gun". The terminology "Ball & Shot Gun" is also used on the rib between the barrels.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=559513&page=all

I questioned here on this Forum about the proof marks on this double, but discussion about it being called a Cape Gun have come up. The other Cape Guns in my collection have Rifle / Shotgun barrels, rather than Shotgun / Shotgun barrels, with one barrel being rifled. Although this was advertised as a Cape Gun, and it is by definition, perhaps an appropriate description - "Ball & Shot Gun" would have been better. Hence all the discussion. I primarily wanted to know the meaning of the numerous proof and other marking on the gun.

As for testing, I've got a lot of experiments to conduct in the next few months on projects that were underway before I acquired this Manufrance gun. But I intend to thoroughly test it with both shot and ball (slug) and will publish the results. Number 6 shot from both barrels at 25 yards, and slugs & round balls from both barrels at 50 yards.

The small bead front sight with no rear sight would be difficult to use beyond 50 yards. Here in Wisconsin most whitetail deer are taken at 50 yards or under, so this distance should be an adequate test of the gun. Although the gun is fairly light weight, recoil shouldn't be a problem for me. I'm used to heavy recoil since I shoot my 600NE and 700NE regularly.

Buck, Ted is a world renowned expert on Darnes. He's dealt in French guns for 45 years. He can be pretty abrupt sometimes - a lot of us are - but one should not discount what he says. I just insert comment here and there because I speak the language, not as well as Wild Cattle but good enough. And I have in-laws in Saint Etienne/Saint Chamond area and am interested in the subject, seeing as how wife and kids are dual Franco-American citizens..

I'm not sure that the French "Raye" barrel guns should be considered "Cape Guns." The "Raye" barrel appears to me to be mostly a shotgun attachment not a pure rifle barrel. In any event Ted's observations are from experience. I happen to believe that this barrel was conceived in about 1928 as a way to fire ball out of a shotgun and still leave it a shotgun to shoot a spreader-round at Becasse. I think the advertisements and articles speak for themselves.

It looks like with your engineering background (I have two brothers and a step-father who were engineers) you also have the curiosity and wherewithal to educate us in the future much like the UK poster from 2006 experimenting with an identical gun. This will truly be interesting...as posted, the curiosity about these guns periodically spikes. They are not common.

Take care. Gene.

edit: and I agree on the assessment of the "raye" striated barrels - they are meant for both ball and shot.

Without getting too much into the weeds, the slow twist( 1/2 to 5/8 rev. in barrel length) suggests round balls may perform better than slugs.
Mike

Hello Der Ami,
Thanks for the reply.

This twist rate is about the same as what is in my Thomas Bland Paradox Gun. Since stabilization is based on bullet length, not weight, the Thomas Bland gun shoots the short fat bullets quite well. Those bullets are over 700g but only slightly longer than bore dia.

buckstix,
My concern was the length, your experience handloading this type ammo is obviously superior to mine.
Mike

The weather is suppose to be nice ... so tomorrow we test the Manufrance 16 bore with both shot and ball. I'll post the results here.

Somewhere along the line, it sticks in my mind that the rate of twist was different for slug barrels vs spreader barrels. There's also the fact that shotguns with one spreader barrel (often both barrels are short as well) are referred to as a "becassier" model. A woodcock special.

I have a Verney-Carron catalog from 1999. There are 2 OU's specifically listed as "becassier" models. On both, the lower barrel is described as "raye dispersant" (spreader barrel). It's interesting that their 12ga "gros gibier" (big game) model comes with both barrels cylinder.

Hello L. Brown,
Thanks for the reply.

I did my first testing today, and I think this paragraph from Argo44 earlier post pretty much describes the gun I have.....

" ... There is another particularity which we are going to find on the barrels ..... The (shallow) rifling. For the dispersion of shot when firing at a short distance and for the shooting of ball...."

The targets below show the results of today's testing. I started very conservative, and will increase velocities carefully in my next load testing. I anticipate with the correct load the gun will shoot more to point of aim. I will be adjusting both velocity and bullet weight to try to achieve this. Its a little hard getting used to a swap rib and a single bead for aiming the rifled barrel. I think a lot of the dispersion was due to that. I'm sure I'll get better as I become more familiar with this sighting system. I'm guessing the option of shooting a ball, was intended as a way to take advantage of as unexpected opportunity for a deer, or boar, at reasonably close distance.

Of particular note is that both the light weight 1oz hollow base bullets, and the heavy 1-1/2oz bullets stabilized in the slow twist of the rifled barrel, as evidenced by round holes, in close groups. I did not shoot either bullet in the smooth bore barrel.

I tested first with shotshell on the 17" square target. A mild target load of 7-1/2s. The shotshell fired from the left smooth bore barrel patterned a bit high, but shows a good pattern from its modified choke. However, the shotshell fired at 25 yards from the rifled barrel shows only 23 pellets of the 338 pellets in the cartridge. (black circles) I fired a second shell in the rifled barrel from 12 yards and that shows a very uniform pattern. (red circles) This barrel would be excellent for close shooting of flushed game, or driven game, with the ability for a follow-up shot from the left barrel if the range increased.

Next I tested the rifled barrel. Some years ago I had a custom bullet mold made for the 1-1/2oz (655g) .676 dia. 16 gauge bullet, as per the German bullets for Vogel Schiessen rifles, of which I have two. One in 18 gauge and one in 16 gauge. The bullet casts .676 and was sized to .660 dia for this gun's bore. The hollow base 1oz bullet is from a Lyman mold and casts a .695 dia. slug. Although the groove dia of this gun is .660, the soft hollow bullet swages down through the forcing cone with no effect on pressure. I did not lube either bullet. I drip 6 drops of oil in each for the fold openings of the crimp, and store bullet-up. The oil coats the bulllets and is absorbed into the fiber wad below it. This method has worked well in my Paradox gun with no leading. I used the paradox crimping tool I designed (and sell) to hold the bullets in place.
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GERMAN VOGEL SCHIESSEN BULLETS


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MY 16 BORE BULLET


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1-1/2oz 655g BULLET - .676 dia sized down to .660 dia


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1oz 438g HOLLOW BASE 16ga SLUG - .695 dia


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BULLETS CRIMPED WITH THE CUSTOM PARADOX CRIMPING TOOL - THAT I MAKE & SELL


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TARGET SHOWING BULLETS FIRED IN RIFLED BARREL @ 25yds


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TARGET SHOWING 1oz #7-1/2 SHOT FIRED IN RIFLED BARREL @ 25yds (BLACK) and @ 12yds (RED)


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TARGET SHOWING 1oz #7-1/2 SHOT FIRED IN SMOOTH BORE MOD CHOKE BARREL @ 25yds


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That Sir....is excellent research. The shot spreader pattern from 25 yards to 12 yards is dramatic. The slug pattern indicates that it indeed was meant to be used with both shot and ball.