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More "greys"; Hopkins & Allen "Spencer Gun Co." tradename gun for Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett & Co.


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Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
Just for everyone's interest, and before everything disappears from PictureTrail frown there are rust inclusions within the barrel wall (not upon the surface as these appear to be) called "greys"


"Greys" are not rust inclusions. Rust is rust, and "greys" are greys.

"Greys" is a somewhat generic term for various inclusions in both fluid steel and Damascus. Greys may be composed of slag, rolled in scale, or other impurities.

There still seems to be a lot of confusion concerning just what scale is. Mill scale IS NOT burned metal, as was described in the copy-and-paste research. Mill scale is various oxides such as Wustite, hematite, and magnetite, that form on the surface of steel when it is heated above critical temperature, and exposed to atmospheric oxygen. Steel can be heated to very high temperatures without the formation of scale if the heating is done in a controlled atmosphere purged of oxygen. But in the presence of oxygen, scale can and will form at much lower temperatures. Scale is not common red oxide rust (hydrated ferric oxide), and scale can actually prevent rust from forming until the protective layer of scale is broken. Here's a pretty good explanation of what scale actually is composed of:

https://www.ispatguru.com/mill-scale/

Slag, scale, and other inclusions end up in steel and iron during the manufacturing process, and various methods are employed to minimize them. Better quality steel will have less inclusions and smaller inclusions. But no steel is ever free of inclusions. Scale forms on the surface, and ends up in steel during the hot rolling or hot forging process. Because of that, most scale within steel will usually be found closer to the surface. Because of the way Damascus is made in layers of welded, folded, and twisted iron and steel, scale may end up anywhere within. When you see videos of Damascus barrel production, you often see the barrel maker applying a fluxing agent such as borax to minimize scale formation. Every time the billet or barrel is returned to the forge for reheating, more scale begins to form. The pounding by manual or trip hammers breaks a lot scale from the surface during the hammer welding, but inevitably, some will end up hammered into the surfaces, and trapped within the welds. Naturally, lesser quality Damascus made by makers with less skill and less effective fluxing will have more scale inclusions.

I don't think we can say that the shiny spots on the barrels in this Thread is solder, silver alloy or otherwise. Unfortunately, the original poster has not returned to provide the information we need to make an accurate determination.




A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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Doc...Doc...dOc

One question for you. I know it will be tough for you to answer.

What does anything thing you posted in this thread have to do with the original posters question or his gun ?


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Obviously abstract thinking - the capacity to synthesize ideas and concepts (or any thinkin') is a challenge for you jOe.
Try to follow.
The OP asked about spots on his pattern welded barrel.
It is not unreasonable to postulate that the spots were an attempt to cover up something.
That something may have been an inclusion at the surface of the barrel. I provided a picture.
The barrel also has lots of red spots - which appear to be on the surface (like on the breech of this unfortunate double).
Someone following the thread with a spark of intellectual curiosity might have an interest in "red spots" within pattern welded barrels. I provided some images thereof.
150 years ago, James Dalziel Dougall called them "greys" and said they were "specks in the iron from rust"
Bro. Dougall unfortunately did not have access to Optical Emission Spectroscopy nor Scanning Electron Microscopy
40 years later Greener 'splained that they were scale.
Keith has explained that these RED spots within the metal are not an iron oxide.

Do yOu have a headache yet jOe? Take a nap and it should resOlve.




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So your answer is nothing....

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Originally Posted By: Drew Hause

Keith has explained that these RED spots within the metal are not an iron oxide.


Well, that's not exactly what I said. I'll try to elaborate without any name calling or eyeball gouging...

When we polish a set of twist or Damascus barrels for initial finishing or for refinishing, we say they are "in the white". Everything is very bright and uniform in appearance, because we have polished off all surface crud and oxidation. Since the iron and steel look so similar in that condition, it can be difficult to even tell they are pattern welded barrels.

Then we apply our secret rusting solution of choice, which causes our shiny white barrels to rust very quickly. A highly polished surface will rust more slowly, because there is less surface area for oxygen to react with. Under the right conditions, with a fairly aggressive rusting solution, they can be completely covered in a uniform reddish brown ferric oxide in only a few hours. This is then carded off. Or in the case of black and white, the barrels are boiled in water to convert the reddish brown ferric oxide to a black ferro ferric oxide, and then that layer is carded off. Subsequent applications and carding, or "turns", gradually begin to color the surface either brown or black.

At this point, it can still be hard to tell if our barrels are pattern welded, because everything is pretty uniform in color. But the oxides that impart the brown or black color do not bind equally to the steel and the iron. And they are even less tightly bound to the so-called "grays". So at whatever point we etch our barrels with our ferric chloride solution, the parts that have this oxide less tightly bound become much lighter in appearance, and that is what gives us the contrast between the iron and steel that we desire. It also makes the "grays" stand out and become more visible too. The controlled oxide we apply as a barrel finish gives us a very fine grained coating that can actually inhibit normal rusting, which is one of the reasons we brown or blue(black) our guns. And the gun oils or wax we apply further inhibits atmospheric oxygen and humidity from rusting our barrels.

But when our barrels are somewhat neglected, such as the gun in this thread, common red ferric oxide, or rust, can form. However, it will form faster on those areas that have less of the protective oxide that we applied in our blacking or browning process. Since the "grays" are more resistant to our browning or blacking, and had protective oxides removed during etching, over time they become more susceptible to a surface coat of common red rust, when our protective coat of oil or wax is gone.

Since this rusting due to neglect is only on the surface, that's why I said earlier that it typically comes off pretty easy with a few minutes of polishing with 0000 steel wool and WD-40. From what I see in the pictures, I don't see that rusting as dangerous. It is what I don't know about the silver spots and the bores that makes me unable to even guess about whether they are safe to shoot. It would be nice if the OP came back and filled in some blanks.

So our pattern welded barrels are a complex mix of steel and iron that is laced with varying amounts of inclusions. Over time, the oxides that form the finish which was applied may also change. And the rate and amount of this change depends upon what we do to protect them from oxygen found in air and moisture. This is when we find that not all gun oils protect equally. When there is a lot of change due to new oxides forming, and old oxides converting to ferric oxide, we politely call that rusting a "patina". The change will differ in a humid Louisiana environment and a dry Arizona desert climate. Although the "grays" may appear to have turned red, a quick swipe with a file or sandpaper would prove that this red coloration is not internal. The red color is due to ferric oxide forming on the surface of the "grays" because the "greys" contain a high percentage of iron. But the "grays" mainly have not been converted to ferric oxide. If and when they do develop such deep rusting, the barrels will become useless.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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Thank you William. An excellent explanation, and in agreement with Greener: "These “greys” may appear some time after the gun has been in use, the hard metal composing the barrel being eaten into by rust, or the thin coating over the “grey” being worn away."

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No, still not quite in agreement with what Greener said. But he did fairly well, and his explanation has satisfied thousands of shooters who didn't or couldn't know better.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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