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Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
You act as if there was ever an option to be armed for a commonwealth subject, such as yourself. There isn’t, never was, and never will be. You were defeated by a crown country, and told how you would live. Long ago. There is no option.
American citizens actually have a choice. We refused to be subjects, and defeated a crown country that would have had us exist as you do.
It wasn’t good enough for us. Rights are not given or taken by the crown. They are God given and belong to all men.
All men that put in the effort to retain them, anyway.


Best,
Ted


Hey Konor, keep in mind, that while ted is right about this, it begins and ends wit taxes. ted's too idle to be able to recognize that while we, were rebelling against the crown for "freedom", we were concurrently enslaving a significant population of African Americans. Back in the day freedom, and liberty only went so far as skin color.

If you really want to him confused and on a diatribe, ask him, "well ted if you believe that, then do you think that the slaves in the south before the implementation of th 13th amendment, would have been right to arm themselves, overthrow the governments of the southern states, or the Union for that matter and kill every single slavery supporting person there was?

Last edited by nca225; 11/24/20 10:37 AM.

Forum: a medium of discussion/expression of ideas. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forum
BrentD, Prof #585203 11/24/20 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted By: BrentD
Originally Posted By: craigd
It shouldn't be necessary, but seems logical to remind you for the umpteenth time that you may not be characterizing 'the American situation' correctly....


Not that you've ever got it right, craigd

Thank you for setting me straight and showing how much you exercise your right to tolerate whatever you feel like. By the way, a weapon of war or a nice sporter, Krags the new battle ground?

John Roberts #585204 11/24/20 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted By: John Roberts

I dare say you Scots have never had the crime problem we have had here due to the racial component that is expanded upon in this piece. Try to open your eyes and mind to what Scotland has never seen and why private ownership of a sidearm here is a tad more important than there. But it isn't totally a racial problem. We just happen to have many freedoms that allow criminals to prosper and the populace's need of a means to rely on for their defense of life, liberty and property other than the tardy policeman:

The Black Dilemma

"For almost 150 years the United States has been conducting an interesting experiment. The subjects of the experiment: black people and working-class whites.

The hypothesis to be tested: Can a people taken from the jungles of Africa and forced into slavery be fully integrated as citizens in a majority white population?

The whites were descendants of Europeans who had created a majestic civilization. The former slaves had been tribal peoples with no written language and virtually no intellectual achievements. Acting on a policy that was not fair to either group, the government released newly freed black people into a white society that saw them as inferiors. America has struggled with racial discord ever since.

Decade after decade the problems persisted but the experimenters never gave up. They insisted that if they could find the right formula the experiment would work, and concocted program after program to get the result they wanted. They created the Freedmans Bureau, passed civil rights laws, tried to build the Great Society, declared War on Poverty, ordered race preferences, built housing projects, and tried midnight basketball.

Their new laws intruded into peoples lives in ways that would have been otherwise unthinkable. They called in National Guard troops to enforce school integration. They outlawed freedom of association. Over the protests of parents, they put white children on buses and sent them to black schools and vice-versa. They tried with money, special programs, relaxed standards, and endless hand wringing to close the achievement gap. To keep white backlash in check they began punishing public and even private statements on race. They hung up Orwellian public banners that commanded whites to Celebrate Diversity! and Say No to Racism. Nothing was off limits if it might salvage the experiment.

Some thought that what W.E.B. DuBois called the Talented Tenth would lead the way for black people. A group of elite, educated blacks would knock down doors of opportunity and show the world what blacks were capable of.

There is a Talented Tenth. They are the black Americans who have become entrepreneurs, lawyers, doctors and scientists. But ten percent is not enough. For the experiment to work, the ten percent has to be followed by a critical mass of people who can hold middle-class jobs and promote social stability. That is what is missing.

Through the years, too many black people continue to show an inability to function and prosper in a culture unsuited to them. Detroit is bankrupt, the south side of Chicago is a war zone, and the vast majority of black cities all over America are beset by degeneracy and violence. And blacks never take responsibility for their failures. Instead, they lash out in anger and resentment.

Across the generations and across the country, as we have seen in Detroit, Watts, Newark, Los Angeles, Cincinnati, and now Ferguson, rioting and looting are just one racial incident away. The white elite would tell us that this doesn't mean the experiment has failed. We just have to try harder. We need more money, more time, more understanding, more programs, and more opportunities.

But nothing changes no matter how much money is spent, no matter how many laws are passed, no matter how many black geniuses are portrayed on TV, and no matter who is president. Some argue its a problem of culture, as if culture creates peoples behavior instead of the other way around. Others blame white privilege.

But since 1965, when the elites opened Americas doors to the Third World, immigrants from Asia and India, people who are not white, not rich, and not connected have quietly succeeded. While the children of these people are winning spelling bees and getting top scores on the SAT, black youths are committing half the country's violent crime, which includes viciously punching random white people on the street for the thrill of it that has nothing to do with poverty.

The experiment has failed. Not because of white culture, or white privilege, or white racism. The fundamental problem is that American black culture has evolved into an un-fixable and crime ridden mess. *They do not want to change their culture or society, and expect others to tolerate their violence and amoral behavior. They have become socially incompatible with other races by their own design, not because of the racism of others - but by their own hatred of non-blacks.*

Our leaders don't seem to understand just how tired their white subjects are with this experiment. *They don't understand that white people aren't out to get black people; they are just exhausted with them. They are exhausted by the social pathologies, the violence, the endless complaints, and the blind racial solidarity, the bottomless pit of grievances, the excuses, and the reflexive animosity.* The elites explain everything with racism, and refuse to believe that white frustration could soon reach the boiling point."---

"You can't legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government can't give to anybody anything that the government doesn't first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they don't have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation.
You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."
JR



Some of that should be written into the U.S. Constitution.

Konor3inch #585206 11/24/20 10:49 AM
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jr, i have never seen "it" expressed better...thank you...


keep it simple and keep it safe...
Konor3inch #585207 11/24/20 10:52 AM
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Konor: you've been here since 2013 and must be aware that others have attempted to confront the violation of the rules clearly posted by the owner of this site, who has chosen to ignore those rules by allowing racist, homophobic, bigoted, school-boy personal attacks and name calling, by a few cowardly bullies. The site is what it is, and the cure for the frustration is non-participation.

So just stop. Like..."The American situation is such that to be unarmed is probably not a good choice given the availability of firearms" is a faulty premise. "The American situation" is that very bad people who are for the most part prohibited by law from owning handguns, have them, and use them to hurt those weaker, or are defenseless, by their own foolish choice or by government edict.
BTW: at least in the U.S. South, Midwest, Southwest and Inter-mountain West it is viewed as bad form when a moral and intellectual superior shows up and lectures the locals as to the defects of their community, customs, culture; without spending a long time investing in the community and trying to understand the culture. Where in the U.S. have you spent time, and how much time?

Are you acquainted with Thomas Guthrie? He was a Free Church of Scotland minister, a founder of “Ragged Schools”, and the Free Church Temperance Society, with Horatius Bonar and William Chalmers Burns. He is not as well known as Samuel Rutherford, Alexander Maclaren or the Bonar brothers, but is another "Thundering Scot".
LR would particularly like Saving Knowledge: Addressed To Young Men
https://books.google.com/books?id=_ZdUAAAAYAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s

This is from his Speaking To The Heart, “The Trial and Triumph of Faith”
"The times, it is said, make men. True; but it is as true that men are made for the times - raised up by God with gifts and graces suited to the work they have to do."
These times are nothing like the "The Killing Time" the Covenanters endured, but 2020 has been a terrible time. What kind of men are we going to be?





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Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
You act as if there was ever an option to be armed for a commonwealth subject, such as yourself. There isn’t, never was, and never will be. You were defeated by a crown country, and told how you would live. Long ago. There is no option.
American citizens actually have a choice. We refused to be subjects, and defeated a crown country that would have had us exist as you do.
It wasn’t good enough for us. Rights are not given or taken by the crown. They are God given and belong to all men.
All men that put in the effort to retain them, anyway.

Best,
Ted


Your reply is a prime example of my point Ted. You have obviously done no research on the strong opinion you hold as fact and prefer the polarising black and white statements that exist only to bolster your political opinion ,that it holds no basis in fact is merely an inconvenience.
Prior to the Firearms Act 1937 firearms possession in the UK was freely available and self defence was a suitable legal reason for firearms possession.
The Anglo Irish war and the fear of those returning from the second world war and the likelihood of unrest in the country were arguably contributing factors to the increased control of widespread firearms possession. Note that prior to 1968 no licensing existed for shotguns and that immediately after the 1968 laws ,incidentally brought about by the gunning down of a policeman with a hand gun,no record was kept of numbers of shotguns possessed or their details.
The Hungerford Massacre as it was called and the Dunblane Shooting brought about more restrictions. Self loading centre fire rifles in the former and handguns in the latter.
Both those changes in the law were brought about while the right wing Conservative Party were in power. So there is no question of there being a commie ,left wing , libtard etc influence overriding the decision to subsequently control those class of firearms.

I do not think for a second that God would condone the right to possess weapons that are so intertwined with abuse throughout modern history but then it does not surprise me that you hold a contrary view.

Last edited by Konor3inch; 11/24/20 11:03 AM. Reason: Addition
Konor3inch #585216 11/24/20 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
....I do not think for a second that God would condone the right to possess weapons that are so intertwined with abuse throughout modern history but then it does not surprise me that you hold a contrary view.

You are wrong, again, Konor. The US Constitution is based on Judson-Christian values, but there is a prescribed method to change the document, and it is not through emotion.

John Roberts #585218 11/24/20 11:22 AM
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Thank you John Roberts for taking the time to reply and laying out your response in such a straightforward way ,much appreciated.

Konor3inch #585219 11/24/20 11:23 AM
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Came in a bit late with this one but I can assure you that criminals and terrorists do certainly exist in the U.K. I know because I spent over 30 years of my life dealing with them!

I applaud certain of your freedoms and your defence of the right to bear arms. Our gun and hunting laws are different and we have certain freedoms in that area that you do not; it's just kind of different that's all. Back in 1689 we had written our Bill of Rights under the reign of William & Mary. In it it had the clause 'the right to bear arms for self defence'. Sound familiar? No doubt when Tom Jefferson and his mates sat down to draft your Constitution and Bill of Right he would have been familiar with this Bill. A ready made blue print that just required a few tweaks here and there. It's just the interpretation that differs. Ours is interpreted as the inalienable right to self defence. When it was written the best the firearms makers could come up with was a crude matchlock so it loosely means you can defend yourself with anything that comes to hand. The best bit about this Bill of Rights is that as Parliament didn't make it Parliament can't change it. I suspect that they don't like that fact! Never mind; tough!

You stick to your rights as interpreted. The United States is both different and similar to the United Kingdom in all sorts of ways which makes for an interesting international friendship; and long may in endure. Lagopus…..

Drew Hause #585222 11/24/20 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
Konor: you've been here since 2013 and must be aware that others have attempted to confront the violation of the rules clearly posted by the owner of this site, who has chosen to ignore those rules by allowing racist, homophobic, bigoted, school-boy personal attacks and name calling, by a few cowardly bullies. The site is what it is, and the cure for the frustration is non-participation.

So just stop. Like..."The American situation is such that to be unarmed is probably not a good choice given the availability of firearms" is a faulty premise. "The American situation" is that very bad people who are for the most part prohibited by law from owning handguns, have them, and use them to hurt those weaker, or are defenseless, by their own foolish choice or by government edict.
BTW: at least in the U.S. South, Midwest, Southwest and Inter-mountain West it is viewed as bad form when a moral and intellectual superior shows up and lectures the locals as to the defects of their community, customs, culture; without spending a long time investing in the community and trying to understand the culture. Where in the U.S. have you spent time, and how much time?

Are you acquainted with Thomas Guthrie? He was a Free Church of Scotland minister, a founder of “Ragged Schools”, and the Free Church Temperance Society, with Horatius Bonar and William Chalmers Burns. He is not as well known as Samuel Rutherford, Alexander Maclaren or the Bonar brothers, but is another "Thundering Scot".
LR would particularly like Saving Knowledge: Addressed To Young Men
https://books.google.com/books?id=_ZdUAAAAYAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s

This is from his Speaking To The Heart, “The Trial and Triumph of Faith”
"The times, it is said, make men. True; but it is as true that men are made for the times - raised up by God with gifts and graces suited to the work they have to do."
These times are nothing like the "The Killing Time" the Covenanters endured, but 2020 has been a terrible time. What kind of men are we going to be?





As you may or may not know the catalyst that caused me to dispute posts on this forum was the posting of “facts” surrounding the handgun ban in Scotland post Dunblane . So the point made by yourself about passing comment with little knowledge or understanding of the situation is apt. I do not consider myself morally or intellectually superior and to argue that that is the case would be pointless when the undercurrent of most of the political postings is to make just that point.
It should not be lost on you that the Covenanters of the south west of Scotland were massacred by Highland Scots soldiers who also raped and murdered and a sizeable number withdrew into the Ayrshire hills from where they returned via the raiders roads to thieve cattle and cause chaos.Or that Culloden had Highland armies on both side of the conflict. It is no little wonder that Scots fail to see in black and white. Weren’t the Scots deeply involved in the formation of the Klu Klux clan and haven’t we fought on the behalf of England and the Empire for over a century with a hand in numerous atrocities around the world from South Africa to Ireland from Aden to India. There will be few Scots who see things as black and white as some contributors here do and this is probably due to their heritage and awareness of the complexities and contradictions found in their own history.
That people have taken time to inform me of their opinion I appreciate and I am not voicing an opinion to change the opinions of others. I do so merely to let my opinion be heard whether it is considered valid or not is not my greatest concern. My greatest concern is having the freedom to voice that opinion.

Last edited by Konor3inch; 11/24/20 11:58 AM. Reason: Addition
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