doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Are these pigeon guns or just decorated with?

re: bore restrictions in the U.S.

1890 American Shooting Association Rules
https://archive.org/stream/fieldcovertrapsh01boga#page/458/mode/2up
No limit on powder
In single bird (target) shooting the rise shall be:
Eighteen yards for ten-bore guns; limit 1 1/4 oz.
Sixteen yards for twelve-bore guns; limit 1 1/8 oz.
Fourteen yards for fourteen and sixteen bore guns; limit 1 oz.
Thirteen yards for twenty-bore guns; limit 7/8 oz.
In double-target shooting the rise shall be:
Sixteen yards for ten-bore guns.
Fourteen yards for twelve-bore guns.
Twelve yards for fourteen and sixteen bore guns.
Eleven yards for twenty-bore guns.
Rules for Live Bird Shooting - same load limitations
The rise shall be:
Thirty yards for ten-bore guns.
Twenty-eight yards for twelve-bore guns.
Twenty-six yards for fourteen and sixteen bore guns.
Twenty-five yards for twenty-bore guns.

Sporting Life April 5, 1890
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/49988/rec/4

The 1898 �Trap Shooting Rules� by the American Shooting Association (courtesy of Randy Davis) listed the following rules:
Charge of powder was unlimited
Shot was limited to 1 1/4 oz. by �Dixon�s measure�
Weight limit (there was no weight limit in 1890 or 1893) and �naked� was not stated:
10g - 9 lbs. 4 oz.
12g - 8 lbs. 4 oz.
16g - 7 lbs. 12 oz.
20g - 7 lbs. 8 oz.
Single target rise���.Double target rise:
10g - 18 yds�.....��16 yds.
12g - 16 yds�...�....14 yds.
16g - 14 yds�...�....12 yds..
20g - 13 yds�...�....11 yds.

From 1895 to 1902 Sporting Life routinely reported the guns and loads used by competitors at major shoots.
These are the 25s at 1901 GAH at Live Birds
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll2/id/42076



I recall ONE GAH at Live Birds competitor who was using a 16g; 1899 GAH. E.A. Sturdevant shot a 16-gauge Parker at 26 yards, with 2 3/4 drams Du Pont, and 1 ounce No. 8 and 7 shot. He killed 23.

Even the ladies used 12g; Annie Oakley mostly 1 oz 2 3/4 Dr.Eq at targets and 3 Dr.Eq. at Live Birds.

April 4, 1896 Sporting Life
One of the pleasantest features of the recent Interstate shoot at Kirkwood Park was the presence of the two lady contestants, Mrs. M. F. Lindsley, �Wanda,� of Cincinnati, wife of Milt F. Lindsley, manufacturer of the King's Smokeless powder, and Annie Oakley, who is the acknowledged champion pigeon shot of her sex in the world. �Wanda� was attended by her husband, who felt well satisfied when his clever wife stood in the big match after a dozen men had dropped out, among them being some of the best pigeon shots of the country.
Her score was equal to that made by such men as Captain A. W. Money, George S. McAlpin, William Wagner, W. S. Edey and W. H. Green. The quality of the birds were a little too fast even for some of the best shots, and �Wanda� can be congratulated for her pluck in entering such a contest.
She used a 12g Smith gun, 7 pounds weight, 3 drams of King's Smokeless powder, 1 1/8 ounces of No. 7 and 6 shot in Peters shells.

Sporting Life, April 2, 1898 GAH report
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll2/id/45659
Mrs. W.P. Shattuck shoots a rather heavy charge. She uses an L.C. Smith gun weighing 7 3/4 pounds, 3 1/4 drams of Du Pont powder 1 1/4 ounces No. 7 1/2 shot, in first barrel, and 3 1/2 drams, 1 1/4 ounces No. 7 shot in second barrel; loaded in a 3-inch Leader shell.

Remember, the OP didn't ask any question about whether or not a 16 could be a pigeon gun. He asked specifically about the two he pictured. There are elements about those two guns that do not align with typical pigeon guns.

Best, SRH

Both of these guns are 6.25 lbs 2 5/8 drop at heel. Everything is pointing to just adornment. Was actual pigeon hunting popular in Europe during this time?
Thanks for the input by all.

Pigeons were a popular motif on U.S. guns, and lots of Smith Pigeon Guns were not used for Live Birds; one of 20 20g



Dr Jim has documented 23 16g Smith Pigeon Guns (the pre-1913 Grade designation)

20g Smith Monogram

Stan,
Regarding pigeon guns and safeties - I have a Boswell 12-b (3") with side clips
and safety made in 1922. The description in their serial number book shows it as a "pigeon gun."

And small bores without safeties were not uncommon on Southern Plantation quail shoots in which the "sport" only touched the gun after it was handed to him; a 16g Smith No. 2

I realize we are wandering OT, but this might be of interest
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/pigeon-guns-and-pigeon-matches.829491/

I agree there are examples of true pigeon guns with a safety. Point is that they are atypical.

I own a 3E 12, 32", vent rib Smith. The original owner's name is engraved on the rib. He was a member of the Philadelphia Gun Club, which actively shot flyers. Yet, it has a safety. I believe it was ordered by the owner as a multi-purpose gun ........ to include occasionally shooting pigeons. It still is not a true pigeon, IMO. It is not stocked high enough.

Thanks, SRH

Stan, I'm not saying that either of the guns of the OP are indeed pigeon guns.....just saying they (subguages) existed....High stock dimensions on Boxbird guns in Europe were/are much less common, than those seen stateside for Barnaby boxes.
MANY vintage pigeon guns in use in Europe have a myriad of leather, cork, wood dutchmen, splices and/or a combination of these are added to achieve a higher sight picture on M&F barreled guns, some of the most famous still bearing sling swivels.

As to the absence of a safety, I have observed that it more frequently appears on American pigeon guns than English or Italian best designed for the ring. Various means were of course employed to deactivate or pin/block the manual safeties on these guns just as we see on competition guns here.

The SxS has all but disappeared from the rings in Europe, Fewer than 10-12 were in use in any of the last 10 trips to Spain, Portugal or Mexico (We saw 3 at this years World Championship)over the past 3 years at various World and European championships and other World Cup events.

Quite a difference from my first trip to Italy in 1979 when they were still @ 30% of the guns in use.