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General Mark Clark and his handling of the Italian campaign. He wavered at Salerno, say his detractors, sent the Texans of the US 36th Division to needless deaths across the River Rapido, and most heinous of all, disobeyed General Alexanders orders to cut off the retreating German 10th Army at Valmontone during the DIADEM Battle for Rome, and instead turned the bulk of his forces through the Alban Hills in an effort to reach the Italian capital more quickly. This decision, it has been argued, was motivated largely by personal vanity and an unchecked arrogance that corrupted his military judgement. How many Brits Polish and other allied lives did this little escapade cost with him showboating in Rome. Fox with the runs how many times do we have to bash your head against a wall before you learn people who live in glass houses should not throw stones. You can say a lot about us brits but in the end we are gentlemen and keep our mouths shut about other countries Military disasters, but we could rake up that little falling out with rice growers that started with the French at Dien Bien Phu ending with your Military throwing helicopters of the decks of ships. Just crawl back in your dam hole and keep a civil tongue in your head.

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Years ago, I decided to ONLY hunt birds with SxS's. Some of these shotguns are a century old.

So I shoot 4k to 5k rounds at Sporting Clays and Skeet with a Beretta A-400 (semi-auto) during the first 9 months of the year. October 1st the Beretta moves to the back of the gun safe, and the old SxS's go bird hunting.

I did try a new Dickinson SxS and a CZ SxS for clays, but ended up selling both.

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Wow, "Degree of wear on side by sides in regular use" to "Mark Clark". I'll say one thing. Once a Brit converts his verbiage to print, I can understand almost every word.

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Originally Posted By: damascus
General Mark Clark and his handling of the Italian campaign. He wavered at Salerno, say his detractors, sent the Texans of the US 36th Division to needless deaths across the River Rapido, and most heinous of all, disobeyed General Alexanders orders to cut off the retreating German 10th Army at Valmontone during the DIADEM Battle for Rome, and instead turned the bulk of his forces through the Alban Hills in an effort to reach the Italian capital more quickly. This decision, it has been argued, was motivated largely by personal vanity and an unchecked arrogance that corrupted his military judgement. How many Brits Polish and other allied lives did this little escapade cost with him showboating in Rome. Fox with the runs how many times do we have to bash your head against a wall before you learn people who live in glass houses should not throw stones. You can say a lot about us brits but in the end we are gentlemen and keep our mouths shut about other countries Military disasters, but we could rake up that little falling out with rice growers that started with the French at Dien Bien Phu ending with your Military throwing helicopters of the decks of ships. Just crawl back in your dam hole and keep a civil tongue in your head.


Dont speak unkindly of the dead. Clark, oft berated, was the man we needed in the hour we needed him:

https://www.historynet.com/mark-w-clark-a-general-reappraisal.htm

Fox is, however, very much alive. Speak candidly of him.

Best,
Ted

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OK, my Limey friend. I'll agree that we (America WW-2) had some sub-standard Generals, if you compare them to Patton (which is a impossible task.) Even Patton cost the war effort when he send a unit to rescue his son-in-law from a German POW stalag-- not as big a FUBAR as Monty's "Market-Garden" Airborne/Ground Troop plan, where the British patently ignored the Dutch underground's "spot on" reports of a massive German PanzerKorp force awaiting the Allied Troops- disaster, big time. And I'll give you Clark & Ike being complacent about the Kraut last-ditch effort that lead to the Battle of the Bulge (Which Patton and Col. Koch predicted)and how that FUBAR lead to greater loss of Allied lives.

But the fact remains that W/O America's involvement in WW11- thanks mainly to the ignorance of American intelligence of the pending attack by Japan at Pearl Harbor, you wankers would be ordering (in German, Danke) sauerkraut und weinerschnitzel at the Savoy Grille, instead of steak and kidney pie.

FWIWIP- my main reason for distrust of the Brits lies in my Green Irish Catholic roots and all the shafting of the Irish by your Countrymen, going back to the Potato Famine and in infamous Lord Boycott and Lord Parnell as well.

I will agree that LBJ's "snookering" the American people into escalating the Aug 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident into a bloodbath that put over 53,000 American names on a long black wall in Washington D.C.-- He should have seen in recent history, albiet in a smaller scenario, the Bay of Pigs Fubar, and learned what JFK learned the hard way-- and you Limeys must now realize re: The IRA and Belfast- your adversary always has the home court advantage-just as we know that wars of attrition lead to a hige butcher's bill afterwards: Pickett's charge in 1963 at Gettysburg, Gen. Haig's loss of 60,000 men at the first battle of the Somme. RWTF


"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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All this drivel should be sent by pm.


Out there doing it best I can.
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If it all.

Repeated display of pointless anglophobia is not going to encourage participation here by our valued brothers from across the pond.

Kindly knock it off Fox.


"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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Good luck with that.


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Your understanding of what might happen if there where no USA involvement is so simplistic. I don't normally do history and consequences of ww2 talks these days but in your case I will make an exception.
Firstly We Brits would not be talking German if the USA did not get involved in ww2. We have a thing called the English channel 22 miles of water It stopped Spanish Phillip, the French Corporal Bonaparte, and the other corporal Hitler. The only one who ever managed it was King William in 1066 On the subject of Hitler he new the game was up when his army failed to take the oil fields at Ploesti plus the blood bath at Kursk. From that point on no Fuel the end was in site. Well we Brits on our own won the air battle and that put pay to the German invasion by sea. So what would be the outcome, lets go to "Yalta" with Starlin, Churchill, and Roosevelt by then was a very sick man. Joe Starlin took advantage of Roosevelt to the point that Churchill tried to warn him but Roosevelt would not listen. Churchills warning was an Iron Curtain will divide Europe. Back to if USA did not enter the war Joe Starlin would not have stopped at Poland he would have continued with the red army all the way to the English Channel so the French would be speaking Russian and like every would be invader that 22 miles of water would put an end to their dreams of invasion, and we would still be ordering our meals in English.
And as a foot note the only thing you Americans did give the British was the bill for the lease lend and you where paid back to the last red cent.
By the way your targets for ridicule Montgomery and Churchill. Montgomery was Irish and Churchill was half American.


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Originally Posted By: Run With The Fox
OK, my Limey friend. I'll agree that we (America WW-2) had some sub-standard Generals, if you compare them to Patton (which is a impossible task.) Even Patton cost the war effort when he send a unit to rescue his son-in-law from a German POW stalag-- not as big a FUBAR as Monty's "Market-Garden" Airborne/Ground Troop plan, where the British patently ignored the Dutch underground's "spot on" reports of a massive German PanzerKorp force awaiting the Allied Troops- disaster, big time. And I'll give you Clark & Ike being complacent about the Kraut last-ditch effort that lead to the Battle of the Bulge (Which Patton and Col. Koch predicted)and how that FUBAR lead to greater loss of Allied lives.

But the fact remains that W/O America's involvement in WW11- thanks mainly to the ignorance of American intelligence of the pending attack by Japan at Pearl Harbor, you wankers would be ordering (in German, Danke) sauerkraut und weinerschnitzel at the Savoy Grille, instead of steak and kidney pie.

FWIWIP- my main reason for distrust of the Brits lies in my Green Irish Catholic roots and all the shafting of the Irish by your Countrymen, going back to the Potato Famine and in infamous Lord Boycott and Lord Parnell as well.

I will agree that LBJ's "snookering" the American people into escalating the Aug 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident into a bloodbath that put over 53,000 American names on a long black wall in Washington D.C.-- He should have seen in recent history, albiet in a smaller scenario, the Bay of Pigs Fubar, and learned what JFK learned the hard way-- and you Limeys must now realize re: The IRA and Belfast- your adversary always has the home court advantage-just as we know that wars of attrition lead to a hige butcher's bill afterwards: Pickett's charge in 1963 at Gettysburg, Gen. Haig's loss of 60,000 men at the first battle of the Somme. RWTF



An amateur ,in every sense of the word, military historian and a plastic paddy to boot. What an embarrassment. Ireland is moving on and leaving you and your fake bitterness behind.
My grandfather served 1914 - 1917 Machine Gun Corps honourably discharged then died in 1941 on active service aged 57 ,his son served in the Eighth Army North Africa then Italy both would have knocked you spark out and my Irish grandmother wouldnt have given you the time of day.
What has any of your grandstanding to do with the longevity of side by side game guns ? Are we meant to feel sorry for you?
I notice you stated in another thread that you prefer the Latin motto of the Royal Marines then quoted it as Who Dares Wins ,a lack of consistency there RWTF especially when the SAS whose motto is Who Dares Wins had many victories in the six counties against the IRA . The Loughall ambush springs to mind and its been in the news recently you may have noticed. The Royal Marines SBS were also successful in the six counties. I think you may be a bit confused over where your loyalties ,if you have any, lie

Last edited by Konor3inch; 09/16/20 07:24 PM. Reason: Comma added
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