doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Forming brass

Thanks to a lead from Don here, I was able to procure a sizing die from a seller on a different forum. The 450/400 3-1/4" case is based on the 450 3-1/4" case, and has not been too tough to shape in my RCBS single stage...up to a point. I am able to get to within a quarter inch of the final form, and then no matter how much lube, no matter how hard I press, nothing. Any suggestions? Thank you!

Did you Anneal the brass? At times this will allow you that little extra you need.

Try one piece of brass. Have a bucket of room temp water available. I hold the brass with my fingers at the rim, heat the upper (mouth end) of the brass back about 1/3 with a propane torch turned up to heat quick, when to hot to hold just drop it in the water. Then blow off the water on the case, liberally coat with Imperial sizing wax and run it into the die.

Let me know how it works out!!
Don

Sometimes though, brass forming gets hung up towards the head of a case? Full length sizing dies aren't necessarily good forming dies. Mark and chamber the brass to figure what might need reducing? Don't spring your press?

You are probably at this point starting to run the solid base of the case into the die as you try to push the neck down and back that last little amt.

The solid base of the cartridge case is just that and doesn't want to resize at all as easily as the upper portions.
It takes a very powerful press to push a case head into the die. Some cases are thicker than others farther up from the solid base as well so you start to run into resistance sooner.
Many single stage presses have simple leverage systems that work very well for most loading. But just don't have the power for case forming and swaging.

If you do get the case fully seated in that die, there's a good chance pulling it back out will rip the rim off the case and leave you with a rimless version of the case stuck inside the die.
The rim is not a very strong piece of metal to yank on to pull the case back out of the die considering all the force you are needing to get it in there.

Some 'make' the the smaller and simple leverage presses work by placing an extension handle (piece of pipe) for leverage over the press handle.
It may work, but the chances of springing the press are there or breaking linkage parts, ect.

Check the base dia of the brass you are reforming and make sure first that it's not oversize to begin with.
That would be making the press and die work extra hard in reforming that when all you really want to do is neck down the mouth and then push that new shoulder back.

Kutter and the others have given good advice, but you might also try running the cases through the seating die, then the sizing die. To save the rims, you should remove the expander button and seating plug from the dies and knock the cases out with a dowel or punch while putting pressure on them with the press handle; if they wont move with a reasonable amount of pressure on the handle. It helps to know where the resistance is coming from. If you smoke a case, or color it with a felt tip pen and run it into the die, the problem area will be where the color is rubbed off the most( may be more than one area). If it is in the shoulder area, annealing the area as described above, but guard against making it too soft or you may collapse the cases. If the problem is the solid head area, you might have to make( or have someone make) a ring die of small enough diameter to size the head, and push the cases in with a hydraulic press or vise ( size the flash hole and "uniform" the primer pocket afterwards). If the solid head is only a small amount too large an alternative is to turn or polish a small amount off.
Mike

Thanks guys! You are really helpful.
Don, to answer your question, yes, the cases were annealed. And maybe not as far down as I need to go, because the 3-1/4" case has a surprisingly long neck.
Craig, good points. Maybe I need a forming die here. The one RCBS custom die probably is a forming die, but the press may not be up to the task.
Kutter, good points. Me and cheater bars are not a good mix on big rusty things, so on a reloading press it would be a disaster. The parent case is the ubiquitous .450 3-1/4" NE, and the same shell holder is used for both .450 NE and the subject .450/.400 3-1/4" "Four Hundred Magnum."
Reading all your suggestions makes me think my RCBS Rock Chucker press is probably at maxed out leverage here. The long neck of the 450/400 3-1/4" case is about a quarter inch longer than the press can go. Danged shame. Before Don put me onto the guy selling the 450/400 dies, I bought a pile of modern Kynoch brass from England, which is SALTY, but worth it, if I want this gun to shoot. Boy wouldn't it be a relief of every sort to take ye olde 450 NE and quickly re-form it to the 450/400..... Maybe I will find someone around here (central PA) who has a hydraulic press.

THANKS MIKE! Fortunately, Kynoch has more of this brass, and it is not nearly as complicated as your wonderful old German calibers ;-). You give excellent advice here, and I will try the seating die first.

No info on the rifle or pics?

I'd like to know how the brass chambers in the rifle, it may not need the sizing that is being attempted, and possibly the die is not sizing the correct areas. A reloader may have other dies that can reduce the shoulder of the case, just enough to chamber for fire forming.

I am reluctant to mention it, but I have not run into much difficulty reducing the diameter of a case head by squeezing it in a vise. I just drill a hole in some scrap steel then cut through it with the band saw. The hole can be over sized and the opening adjusted by grinding a little off the mating faces. I have cobbled up support so it sits between the jaws, then give brass little bumps where the die couldn't reduce it, turning the brass constantly. I sat a primer pocket uniformer in the opening, the neck is facing down and the rim keeps the brass from falling through, just in case it distorts and do a clean up cut on the pocket.

As mentioned earlier, it may be frustrating to keep trying with the sizing die. The seating die can be an option. If it is working, the brass can be pushed farther in by putting a plate on the shell holder and not engaging the rim. It also would not change the performance of the seating die to grind a little bit off the bottom so brass can be pushed in farther. These are only thoughts that have worked for me.

Steve, it is an 1894 Lancaster double rifle, originally made for the Raj of Poonch, which as far as I can tell was all of NW India, including the Kashmir, and well into what is today Pakistan. He liked this gun so much he ordered another one in 1895. It appears mechanically sound and tight, and the oval bores are in good shape. This is actually a gun that a guy named George Lander, who was active on this site, sold at auction, along with a bunch of other double guns. It didn't make reserve in 2017, then in 2018 it sold, was re-sold by Rock Island Auction in 2019, re-sold in June 2020, and re-sold again in July 2020 by a gun store investor. I was incredibly leery of this gun after I bought it, because some "gunsmith" had made "improvements" upon it and I learned it had changed hands so much. Each time it sold its price dropped. It seemed to me that it must have terrible problems. Now it appears the oddball caliber, lack of brass, lack of dies, lack of bullets all deterred previous owners from trying to get it to shoot. And so it seems it sat for one guy, then sat for several others, with each guy staring at it longingly, and then getting rid of it. Having gone through this same start-up process with other Lancaster oval bore rifles, I believed I could get it to shoot. And so here we are. Last night two rounds (Kynoch brass) were loaded with 110 grains of Swiss FFG and .408 235-grain Hawk JSP bullets. Simple sizer crimp. I hope to see how it performs. I can try to do photos here, but in the past I have failed.