doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Francotte 32095

Ghostrider,

Francotte 32095 is a bit of an enigma. While the serial number is from a gun built about 1900, the proof marks are, as Skeettx suggests, from the mid 1960�s � certainly from the period well after 1900. Von Lengerke & Detmold in Manhattan, NYC began to import Francotte guns in 1889. Importation continued through the purchase of VL&D as well as VL&A (Chicago) by Abercrombie & Fitch in 1929 until about 1960 when they were replaced by less expensive Zoli-Rizzini guns. The commonly encountered �numbered� Francotte models such as 14, 20, 25, 30 and 45 Eagle actually began in 1910.
It appears to me that your gun is a Grade No. 2 that was built just before 1900. The Grade No.2 was an Anson & Deeley style boxlock non-ejector side by side with �Quadruple Wedge fastening� that included two Purdey-style under lugs, an exposed greener cross-bolt and a doll�s head rib extension. The model No.2 also had intercepting sears (note the small screw immediately behind each of the balls of the standing breech) and Sieman Martin steel barrels (although Damascus barrels were available up until 1900). The gun was available as a lightweight Game Gun or as a heavier Trap or Pigeon gun. In 1910 the grade No. 2 became the basis for the grade No.14 with the addition of automatic ejectors. The price of the Grade No. 2 between 1900 and 1902 was $100. The Grade No. 14 (which included ejectors) in 1910 was priced at $140. If you will review my post in �Educate me on Francotte SxS�s� in the FAQ forum of this site you will find a list of all of the Francotte models imported by VL&D/A&F between 1900 and 1977 when A&F closed.

The reason that I believe that your gun was built before 1900 is that the serial numbered Francottes that are a few numbers higher than yours were received at VL&D in 1900. But why would the gun have proof marks from a much later date? It is possible that for some unknown reason the gun was built about 1900 but remained unsold at the factory in Liege, Belgium until someone found it and decided to send it to the proof house in 1963.

I am sorry but I will be unable to answer any other questions because I am abandoning this site until the children are sent to their rooms.

Bob Beach

As always thank you Bob.
My only contribution is that the barrels do not appear to have received 3rd Compulsory Proof c. 1900, then again in 63'

Interesting that there is a 'LD' on the action flats. I do not know if Francotte sourced actions from Dumoulin Lambert
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20den/a%20dumoulin%20lambert%20gb.htm
There is a crowned 'LD' on the action flats on another Francotte. Scroll down about 1/2 way
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/art...chasse%20gb.htm

Is there a tiny MAGI on the right barrel by the rib, or is that part of MADE IN BELGIUM?

Bob and Drew thank you so much for the information you both continuously so freely share. I found this light weight game guns marks to be a little confusing, hence by posting.

Its amazing the knowledge the fine members such as yourself provide on this site. I now have a little better understanding of this nice Francotte.

Drew I am up North scouting for elk but will be home on Tuesday. I will look for the markings request and report my findings.

Best Regards
Ghostrider

I just knew I had viewed the letters >>MAGI<< previously:

MAGI : : marque de la S.P.R.L. MAGI avenue de l�Energie, 301 � ANS-ALLEUR (LIEGE) Successeur de A.J. DEFOURNY (voir publicit� en annexe)

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20m/a%20magi%20sprl%20fr.htm



MAGI est la marque du garnisseur de canon MAGILISSEN � Li�ge

http://littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pirotte%20fr.htm

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

YES


The action has no proof date, so if looks like a rebarrel.

I'm sure Geno Charcot would have known, but if MAGI represents >>MAGILISSEN<<(d�nomm� garnisseur en 1948), I wonder what the S.P.R.L. denotes?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Well done Raimey.
Here it is in ah-mer-kan
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20m/a%20magi%20sprl%20gb.htm

S.P.R.L. is likely something like Syndicat Pour (la Fabrication?) Li�geois

As Mike discerned, and with Bro. Bob's help, the gun is c. 1900 (maybe with help from Dumoulin Lambert) then re-barreled by MAGI and proved in 1963.

Neat how we're smarter together, which should be the point of this Forum.

Would this Francotte have been reproofed since it has both 2-3/4 and 12/70mm marks?
It's number 86011, c.1929, an 18E I believe..

The lettre annale is for 1928 Rob.

The tubes were supplied by Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont/Canons Delcour S.A. (barrel production) of Nessonvaux. They weighed 1.346 Kg at the time of proof. If > 3% less now they are considered out of proof. The bore at proof was the usual 18.4 mm = .724".

It is very common for Liege guns produced for U.S. export to carry the chamber length in both mm and inches.

I am of the opinion that the import house, A&F, V,L&D, etc. had their gunsmith to stamp the >>2 3/4"<< on the tubes.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse