doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Murat Cizeron

Ok,you folks have been so great on the JW Purucker info that I have another question for you. Anybody familiar with Murat Cizeron?I have what is now a very well worn family sxs that came home from Germany during WWII. Beautiful little short 16 bore. Nicely engraved, worn but once beautiful Walnut. I'm mostly just interested if anybody knows anything about the company, not so much this particular gun. It's currently in my safe awaiting the day that my Grandson reaches the age when I can hand it to him. It's priceless to us.
Thanks

Murat Cizeron; rue Badouill�re 40, Saint-�tienne, France. Listed in 1892 as a gunmaker

Post pictures for more info.

likely some connections with this gun, see photo #25,

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867816346

Looks like Greybear has the gun. If so...analysis:

-- Ronchard-Cizeron is a well known St. Etienne barrel maker - running bunny is the trademark.
-- Gun is chambered in cm (6.5) vice mm (65) which was in effect only in St. Etienne from 1889 to 1912.
-- Proofed for PS powder - i.e. post 1900.
-- Canon de Surete and Guarante mean nothing but advertisement
-- Double Epreuve - is double proof, - see the double St. Etienne proof marks, at the time an indication of quality,
-- it was retailed by Guinard Art in Compeigne, NE of Paris. He must have been a well known retailer..there are guns on French sites sold by him:
https://www.auction.fr/_fr/lot/tres-beau...mpiegne-307235. There is a well known auto-parts maker in Compeigne named Guinard....it was taken over by the Germans and featured in the French WWII resistance. Retailers of guns in France were hardware stores that sold, scooters, bicycles, motorcycles, cars...etc.
-- "Raymond" on the lower rib could be the gun maker.
-- Chambered fo 16.8 (16 bore)
-- 393 is the serial number - but won't mean much.
-- M�daille d'or - gold medal I think won at the 1900 Paris exposition. will check on this.
-- Choke bored - It's choked but doesn't tell how much - French guns usually had a lot of choke
-- "Perfectionee". - means nothing but and advertisement.
-- there is a "L(?) Murat" stamp....Not sure what that would mean. Will research.

I don�t get post 1900 proof with powder S. The gun was initially double black powder proofed, light hit on the second mark. Proof with powder S could have been post 1900, but, is more likely just prior.

Very hard to nail that down. I�d be very interested in the condition of the bores, and the measurements of same, 9� forward of the breech.

Best,
Ted

Ted, you're right...I got mixed up on PS and PT.

From the 1889 "Tour Eiffel" Paris Universelle...Awards for hand carried hunting guns:



Rough translation:
M. Murat-Cizeron, Saint-Etienne (France) - A newcomer among the gun makers of Saint-Etienne, M. Murat-Cizeron distinguished himself by the perfection of his work which reached nearly that of the best houses of Paris and Liege, and which is certainly above that obtained up to the present in Saint-Etienne. If his brother gunmakers copied M. Murat-Cizeron and would strive like him for perfection, to increase the elegances of their guns, without doubt French commerce would retain in Saint-Etienne the orders which have unfortunately, for a long time, gone abroad.

Frenchy - we need pictures of your gun. You'll have to put them on your desktop...go to a photo hosting site such as JPGBOX.com and down load them, then post the code here. We need the barrel flats, barrels, name on the rib, and action flats/water table in particular. Sometimes there is the retailer's name engraved around the trigger guard and sometimes there'a an interesting motive on the butt-plate.

I can post some Murat Cizeron guns from Naturabuy.fr but let's see what your gun is all about first.

That is a good looking gun.

That action is seen on many French and Belgian boxlocks. Some have a fancy back, like this one, and some are plain as the day is long, but, whoever sourced that action made a bunch of them for most of 100 years. Initially, I�d suspect Manufrance, but, I simply have no proof.

The holes in the flats spook me. Not a place I like to see ventilation.

Gene, the decorative bit in front of the trigger guard has a proper French name, that escapes me at the moment. It is typically seen on old, better quality French hunting guns.
Do you know it? I forget.

Best,
Ted

Ted...I agree on that gun....but I don't think the GreyBear posted gun is Frency's gun. But the name in front of the trigger guard on the Greybear gun is the retailer....

-- it was retailed by Guinard Art (abbreviation - I'll figure it out) located in Compeigne, NE of Paris. He must have been a well known retailer..there are other guns on French sites sold by him:
https://www.auction.fr/_fr/lot/tres-beau...mpiegne-307235.

There is a well known auto-parts maker in Compeigne named Guinard....it was taken over by the Germans and featured in the French WWII resistance. Retailers of guns in France were hardware stores that sold, scooters, bicycles, motorcycles, cars...etc. The company could have retailed the gun.
-- "Raymond" on the lower rib could be the gun maker.

When I see those armuriers who sold the guns, I always have to go looking at the local newspapers. It's such a trip back in time. The WWI Armistice was signed in a rail car in the forest of Compeigne.

I think this is the A. Guinard mentioned in the GreyBear link - It's a Parisian company but the Compeigne agency has to have a link.



From Compeigne during the war (WWI):
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5789763m/texteBrut
ANN�E 1915 103

demand�s en faveur des ouvriers boulangers, des techniciens de l'usine �lectrique, des pompes fun�bres. On cherche surtout � am�liorer les services publics priv�s, par suite de la mobilisation, de la plus grande partie de leur personnel. L'usine Guinard, r�quisitionn�e pour la fabrication des mitrailleuses, est utilis�e par le sixi�me parc d'artillerie. Partout o� cela est possible, on cr�e des ateliers pour intensifier la fabrication des canons et des munitions.

La troisi�me division de cavalerie au repos � Compi�gne depuis trois (mois, quitte la ville le 10 mai pour remonter vers le Nord. Le 11, le Pr�sident de la R�publique, en tourn�e sur le front, fait un court s�jour avant de se rendre dans le secteur de Rib�court.

argo is correct, the link to gb is neither my gun or that of the original poster. i generally watch the french guns there, and had noticed the L. Murat marking on the action bolting. i suspected some sort of connection, based on age and quality.
best regards,
tom

There is a Murat family from Saint-Etienne who were famous lock makers/action makers ("Platiners" - see the Fr-English dictionary on this site) for a couple of centuries. Louis Murat was especially well known around the 1850's. This line (translated to English) might provide a clue (bad machine translation - I can do better) - Note the connection to Murat-Cizeron:

http://translate.google.com/translate?client=tmpg&hl=en&langpair=fr|en&u=http%3A//sysinfomac.fr/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26view%3Darticle%26id%3D21%26Itemid%3D83



That was a fine gun...it's been sold...wonder who bought it. Ted? Did you pull the trigger.