doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 1905 9f DM Lefever imperial steel question

Keith;
Are your guns trigger plate or box lock actions?
The "Not Connected With Lefever Arms Co" does seem to be most often found on guns built in Syracuse prior to the move to Ohio, & would also seem to be where most of the trigger plate guns were built.

With anything Lefever, it is, of course, not good to make absolute statements, as one will turn up which proves you wrong.

Anyone;
Did SB&Co import any Damascus tubes? I will try & double-check sometimes but I am almost certain my LAC FE grade with chain Damascus has an SB&Co mark on the barrels.

Miller, as I recall, the 7 D has the boxlock action. I have not checked the O Excelsior. Off the top of my head, I do not remember how to tell without removing the trigger plate... something else I need to check out. If you have Robert Elliot's second book, "Uncle Dan Lefever- Master Gunmaker", the cocking mechanism of my 7 D is shown in the top photograph on page 98.

The inner workings of my 7 D were also pictured in a Double Gun Journal article by Keith Kearcher. I would have thought this gun never had a screw turned until I saw it partially disassembled in that article, and recognized the very low serial number. Just goes to show what is possible with correct hollow ground screwdrivers and good technique.

Hi Keith;
It's not necessary to take anything apart to tell whether it is a trigger plate or box lock. Simply look at the frame. If it's a box lock there will be three pins through the frame at the lower rear if it's a trigger plate they will not be present as the hammers & etc all attach to the trigger plate.

I have owned and looked over a few D M Lefever'S over the years and most had the grade stamp under the grip cap (capped PG original stocks). I have not looked for the grade stamp under the trigger guard tang on a straight grip gun, but they might be stamped there. I once saw a grade 5B 16 gauge with left hand top lever (pivots clockwise) that Tom Gibbons had a show in the mid 90's. Very rare and beautifully engraved gun but he wanted more for it than I had in my retirement fund!

Miller, I looked at my 7 D and O Excelsior D.M. Lefever crossbolt guns, and both are boxlock actions. The 7 D has a 103x serial number and is marked D.M. Lefever ans Sons and Co. The O Excelsior has a 168x serial number and is marked D.M. Lefever and Co.

The Damascus tubes on the 7 D have "Damascus" engraved on one tube and "Steel" engraved on the other. The only other mark I can find besides the serial number is the aforementioned SD&G stamp on the bottom of one barrel. Robert Elliot says most crossbolts have fluid steel barrels, and one with Damascus is a scarce variation of an already rare commodity.

The fluid steel tubes on my O Excelsior have only the serial number on the bottom left tube, and each barrel has a single letter "S" about an inch forward of the barrel flats.

For Jtplumb, there are no proof marks anywhere on either gun. The only marks on the water tables is the serial number. I say "water table" in the hope Dr. Wanker sees it and pops an aneurysm.

GSPWillie, I searched everywhere for a grade stamp on my higher grade D.M. Lefever gun. As I said, it has a semi-pistol grip, so there is no grip cap to look under. It does have a recoil pad which I have not removed. Strangely, there is a fairly thin black spacer between the pad and the wood which has a spur or widow's peak on top at the heel. It is perfectly fitted and inletted, but I don't know if this was original. I thought of the possibility that someone might have sanded the original buttplate flat, and used that as a spacer between the wood and pad, so as to add LOP without having a void to fill where the spur is. I had read that some unmarked guns might have the grade written in pencil under the trigger guard tang so I also lifted that, and found nothing. I call it a 7 D strictly on the style and amount of engraving coverage, the amount of figure in the stock, and the checkering. Of course I made these comparisons from the photos in Robert Elliot's books, and the few I've seen for sale since I bought it.

GSP, you were lucky not to pay the price of that "5B". Gibbons was notorious for his fakes. Several of the fakes were Crossbolt guns and even more were Sideplate Lefevers. Several Optimus fakes in both types.

Where does one find these "outed" Lefever high grade fakes for a reasonable price? I admire the guns but I'm no stickler for originality...Geo

When the fakes show up at auction, the Auction House is usually warned. Then , the guns are taken off of the auction, or relabeled as "upgrades" or similar. In private transactions, they can float merrily along for years with the buyer oblivious.

Jtplumb said "I don't think there were more than 1200 of these crossbolt guns made, tuff to find any good info."

The best current information source is the Lefever Arms Collectors Association web site.
URL is: https://www.lefevercollectors.com/

You have to register in your own name to reach the web site and the Newsletter Archive is restricted to LACA members, but the majority of the information is then available to you. There are good images of all grades of both the side plate and the crossbolt guns.

Keith I did go back and look through this 1905 catalog ( reprint from Galazans place)and the 7d was skipped in both description and price sections, yes seems odd.

Thank all of you for your help. Much appreciated!