doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Opinions on best sxs boxlock design?

The A&D boxlock has been modified by many manufacturers since its inception.
Which SxS action, (sears placement, access to locks,bolting etc.) has the most benefits and why?
Lindner, Sauer, WR, model 21, Rizzini others?
Just curious as to what designs have real advantages over others.
Best Regards,
JBP

The early versions were marketed as "best" guns and were finished accordingly, most even having intercepting sears. As the market evolved and general knowledge of the human time-investment needed to complete them (as compared to a sidelock) became more well-known, the prices they could command came down significantly, and accordingly...the fit & finish became less elaborate as well. Not on all but certainly....many. The Skimin & Woods made guns were used for most (if not all) of the boxlock 2-inch 12-gauge gun were very petite and are very well done. Certainly the originators (Westley Richards) guns are almost all very nice. Exceptionally so.

Webley and Scott 400. Screw grip, disc set strikers, no dolls head to get in the way, no integrated striker/tumblers, excellent prewar quality. Intercepting sears are iffy in boxlocks, most have been removed by now.
One of the Rossen patent boxlocks, the self opening one, is really nice, but, there don�t seem to be a lot of them out there. Alfred Galifant was going to use that design for his own guns, don�t know if he actually completed any.
Richard Levi at G. Granger was working on a 28 gauge boxlock when I was there, self opener, ejector, but, it was just an action forging and bits when I last saw it. Wonder what ever became of it?

Best,
Ted

I assume we are talking engineering aspects and if so the Beretta 626 action slams the Anson-Deeley. Its bits work under compression not tension and steel's strength is better used under compression. It has cylindrical recesses for the action parts, coil springs, incorporated double safety notches in the tumblers, replaceable cross pin and it is hardened throughout. And if anything breaks it can be replaced with no hand fitting required. The action bar is chamfered to accept the filleted monobloc barrels.

Being Italian it has no "best gun"cache, but objectively it is the better system. External appearance wise it is identical with its three axles to the AD for those that like such details.

I will say that I am biased. Even so I will put forward the Webley & Scott 700 series Box lock ejector built in the UK mainly because it was manufactured with no frills with the minimum of parts, real quality V springs not those poor coyly efforts with barrels and action made out of the best materials available at the time. Hand assembled and finished for not that much money at the time for an English gun, with most of the production still out there and working well many are now well over half a century old like thee one in the photograph, like all manufactured items they do have some faults though not a great number, that a competent gunsmith cant cure quickly.

Ted, I agree with your praise of the Webley & Scott Model 400, and of the screw grip design--which was actually a Webley patent several years before the merger with Scott. There are both sidelock and boxlock screw grips. That design obviously requires some sort of rib extension/3rd fastener, and in quite a few examples it is a dolls head. I guess I've never been overly bothered by a dolls head getting in the way.

Ron Forsyth did an excellent article ("The Ubiquitous Screw Grip") for Shooting Sportsman (Sept/Oct 02).

The Webley 400 & 700 definitely have some design flaws. One is in its hook design. These guns do tend to come off the face fairly early in their life with moderate use. Another is how the guns action wears over time, the gun tends to over gape over the years causing the the forend to dig into the bottom of the action floor plate. This is caused by excessive wear to the cocking mechanism. The mainspring pins on the side of the actions have very little thread bearing surface and these usually back out or strip out over time as well.
Overall, I love W&S BL�s. None of these flaws would ever prevent me from owning one. I still own a few.

My vote for best overall BL design goes to the W.W, Greener Facile Princeps or FH series guns. These guns are ridiculously strong, petite actions, the internals are robust and hearty....the fastening system is far superior to the W&S series too. You�ll rarely see these guns in the shop for action issues or being off the face.

My favorite "Boxlock" is the Lefever. Adjustable ball joint hinge, Bolted Square shouldered Doll's Head & sear engagement on the outer periphery of the hammer, rather than down by the axle. It also has much better aesthetics than the typical boxlock.

I Fail to get excited with the Cigar Box frame shape of the A&D design & it has a much poorer sear placement. I also have an early (Ca 1902) J P Sauer & Son with very good sear placement but is a sidelock so not applicable to this discussion.

I'll go with the Westley-Richards series with the removeable locks- and their great single trigger- as evidenced by the Nitro-Express .577 rifle once owned by the late Ernest Hemingway-- whether made up as a gun (shotgun) or a Express rifle- great design indeed. I believe Hank Williams Jr. (Bosephus?) is also a fan of that great boxlock design. RWTF

if reliability and durability are primary criteria, then no other boxlock designs tops the browning bss...