doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Last call for frame and barrel samples

Thanks to the generosity of several here, I'll be making another run to METL for composition analysis of frames and analysis and tensile testing of barrel segments.
I've got these frames:
1890 Early Hunter Arms Fulton �Transition� L.C. Smith Hammerless
1892 New Ithaca (Hammer) Gun
1900 Remington Hammerless Model of 1900
1909 L.C. Smith 00
c. 1927 Crescent Empire No. 60

And barrel segments for composition and tensile testing
Pieper fluid steel (it has been reported that Pieper used Cockerill steel)
"Cast Steel" (likely Decarbonized)

If you have something to contribute, please send an email to drewhausemd@yahoo.com and we'll see if it is something not already tested.
Thanks and the results should be interesting. Several sources suggest turn-of-the century frames were AISI 1020.

Summary of the previous barrel studies are here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cvqRzkg0wEjhAAcFWr8gFi7aPFRsSIJ_hahfDxmrNAU/edit

Off to METL this morning after shooting at Ben Avery. Wind is blowing like Kansas and it should be interesting with my crappy thin damascus barrel farm implement 16g Smith and 3/4 oz. handloads
Thanks again to the contributors!

Results are in. Here are the barrels

Post-1893 unknown Belgian maker �Cast Steel�
Non-standard 1002 Very Low Carbon Steel with high Phosphorus & Silicon - 53,000 psi
(This is slightly less than the average of the Pattern Welded samples)

Unknown date of manufacture Pieper Eclipse, likely Cockerill fluid steel
Non-standard AISI 1030 with high Phosphorus & Manganese - 99,500 psi

FRAMES

No way around the "not the best" steel Hunter Arms was using, likely sourced from Sanderson Bros.

c. 1890 Hunter Arms Fulton �Transition� L.C. Smith Hammerless and 1909 L.C. Smith No. 00
Both were non-standard but similar to Bessemer Resulphurized (very high Sulphur) AISI 1109 Low (.09 & .12%) Carbon Steel.
The industrial standard tensile strength for non-heat treated 1109 is 56,000 psi

Plans & Specifications of the L.C. Smith Shotgun by William S. Brophy contains an undated but likely post-1913 Materials Specification chart indicating �AISI 1020 Carbon Steel� for the frame.

c. 1900 Remington Hammerless Model of 1900 -
Bessemer Rephosphorized Resulphurized AISI 1211 Low Alloy Low (.08%) Carbon Steel
The industrial standard tensile strength for non-heat treated 1211 is 75,000 psi

c. 1892 New Ithaca (Hammer) Gun -
AISI 1015 Carbon Steel

c. 1927 Crescent Empire No. 60 -
Non-standard AISI 1015 Carbon Steel with low concentrations of Nickel (.05%) and Chromium (.08%)

The Southern burst barrel just arrived. The report will be on the LCSCA site and I'll post a link when something is up.

Nothing in that brazing looks good to my untrained eye.

And what will we learn from knowing what grade of steel was used in various shotgun frames? It might really mean something if they were all of the same design. But we are seeing an apples to oranges comparison. Design probably has much more to do with frame failures in shotguns than the materials used to build them... which is why I respect Ted's observations that Tobin frames stretch due to having too much meat machined out of them.

Brass frames are perfectly adequate for some firearms within design limts. The current Henry Big Boy Cassic has a brass frame and is chambered in .44 magnum and .357 magnum. With proper design, polymer frames with minimal steel reinforcement are working quite well in many handguns generating higher chamber pressures than the average shotgun.

Can't access this- I need some sort of permission.

bczrx: that happens occasionally and I don't know why.
Go to the Home Page
https://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/www/home
then scroll down to "Barrel Failure Analysis & Metallurgical Evaluation"

METL I know- but how did Ben Avery feel after being shot at?? How do you get such volunteers for your R&D projects. I have a "beat-up" 12 gauge OO grade stripped receiver- the series with the crosswise milled out slot for the rotary caming extractor design- but I see you have one- also, why do you refer to Smiths as farm implement Smiths- are yours done up in John Deere green and yellow? strange stuff out in Kansas: Dorothy and Toto- The Clutter family in 1959 "In Cold Blood"-- and one of the best ballad songs ever- "Dust In The Wind" great finger-pickin' guitar work blending with the fiddles-- RWTF