doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Frederick Williams info/dating help

It would seem rather obvious to me the action proofs & the barrel proofs were not applied at the same time. The action carries metric marks as in 16-70 (2 3/4") & 16.9 (.665") while the barrel has English marks. <16/C>; 2 3/4" (chamber & length) & 17/1 (bore (.656-.661) (bore diameter) so obviously with bores of .665 at re-proof the bores had been enlarged, likely for that amount just a good honing. When it accepted the .661 (16 gauge) plug though it was "Out of Proof" for resell purposes as I understand it.

I'm not going to argue with you about it...but I've never saw a reproofed gun marked so cleanly.

The markings on the flats are modern C21st nitro REPROOF marks impressed by a tester who took pride in their work and not having to work round a mess of old proof marks. They are many years younger than the gun and anyway the reproof stamp (R under a crown) is there for all to see. I agree that they are neatly done but I have seen plenty of reproofed guns with as neat a set as this one.
The marks on the tubes are the original, or at least a early C20th reproof set, and would appear to agree with date of the gun.
As to the originals' location, when submitting for proof one could specify where the marks were to impressed or even request no marks and have a certificate issued instead.

Did anyone establish a production date ?

Have had a few with proof marks on the tubes but never anything with a certificate (unless de-act). Surprisingly found a sister gun with unmarked flats here http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...df5139eebe3f8f5

I own a Frederick Williams in 12 bore similar to your 16 in that it has a scalloped boxlock action. Geoffrey Boothroyd wrote an article on the gun in the millennium issue of the British Shooting Times and Country Magazine dated 23rd December 1999.According to Geoffrey ,Williams guns were exported to Japan through a Mr Horio in Kobe Japan and to A and W McCarthy in Dunedin New Zealand one of whose staff travelled to Birmingham to train with Williams.
David Baker in the March 2002 British Sporting Gun magazine in his Antique Answers column states that there is a listing for a Frederick Williams in the London directories at 3,Broad Street Station, Liverpool Street,EC in 1912 and 1913 and then at Bishopsgate,EC from 1914 to 1918. As both your gun and mine are engraved Birmingham and London this would probably date your shotgun and mine to between 1912 and 1918. David Baker also stated that in his book The Heyday of the Shotgun that most of the guns in the George catalogue that forms the appendix are probably Williams guns though the cheaper end of the Williams range.
Geoffrey Boothroyd quotes prices from what he estimates to be a 1930s catalogue from �7 up to �100 for a Superior Grade sidelock. The reprint catalogue which I own quotes the High grade sidelock ejector at �70 and a scalloped boxlock ejector with invisible bite at �32 unfortunately I don�t know the published date of the catalogue but probably a bit before the 1930s catalogue referred to by Geoffrey Boothroyd

Problem with your date is that this particulart gun was proofed in 1925 or later.

Apologies , I hadn�t taken the proof marks into account my last post shows my reasoning and begs the question if Frederick Williams was only registered having premises in London up until 1918 why would he be engraving his guns Birmingham and London post 1926. Was this artistic licence to profit on a past London connection ? I will examine the proof marks on my own gun in the morning ,as they are Damascus barrelled my guess is they may well be earlier than 1925

Thats exactly it, once he had the London address it stayed on the rib. Not at all unusual in the trade to use the "London" thing.

Thanks everyone. I love the gun so far and this additional info makes it all the more interesting.