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Forums10
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 638 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 638 Likes: 2 |
Not sure if this has been asked before, but what are your thoughts on the pressures generated in a muzzleloader like in comparison to the same load in a breech loader? I would assume the same, but does it make any difference with the lack of a chamber, forcing cone, case head etc?
Also I seem to recall reading somewhere about an experiment where the chambers of a breech loader actually had slots cut in them from the breech to the end of the chamber. These were then fired without issue if memory serves me correctly. It may have been Burrard or Greener but I cannot find it. Can someone point me in the right direction? Cheers, GDU.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398 Likes: 307
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398 Likes: 307 |
Greg: if that information is anywhere, it's probably here. Please let us know what you find. Sporting Guns and Gunpowders: Comprising a Selection from Reports of Experiments, and Other Articles Published in the "Field" Newspaper, Relative to Firearms and Explosives, Volumes 1-2, 1897 https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,313 Likes: 378
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,313 Likes: 378 |
Given equal loads and equal charges of black powder, there is an immediate and obvious difference in pressures due to the gas loss that escapes from the flintlock vent or percussion nipple. In the case of flintlocks, the size of the vent is critical because going too large in order to get more reliable ignition also causes a corresponding reduction in chamber pressure that lowers velocity.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
In a breech loader the inside of the case is normally a bit larger than the actual bore diameter thus more volume in the initial combustion area. Also the paper of the case & base wad would soak up some Heat, thus lowering pressure a bit. These may more than offset the loss through the vent. I have done a good bit of shooting with cap locks & with a properly constructed nipple never noticed much loss through it.
A former co-worker hunted with a .50 caliber "Hawken Type" caplock. First thing he would do when he had to replace the nipple was to drill it out to the point that when he fired it the hammer would be blown back to Full Cock. His idea was if a follow-up shot was needed he wanted to be able to reload as quickly as possible & not have to fool with re-cocking it.
Only way I know this could be determined for certain would be to run pressure tests on otherwise identical barrels with one set up as a ML'er & the other a breech loader. As I don't have the equipment to do this it is all purely speculation on my part. There are though factors which could point toward either.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 388 Likes: 4
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 388 Likes: 4 |
Just the nature of firing a crimped cartridge with a bullet .001 to .002 larger than groove diameter is going to increase pressure over a similar load in a muzzleloader. No crimp to overcome or forcing of a larger bullet into the rifling with the front stuffer.
“I left long before daylight, alone but not lonely.”~Gordon Macquarrie
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
Since this is a shotgun forum & it wasn't stated otherwise I assumed we were speaking of shotguns & not rifles.
W W Greener spoke of turning some shotgun chambers quite this & them holding normal loads. When Julian S Hatcher was chief of Ordnance for the US Army he experimented with an ordinary 1903 Springfield in .30-06 by turning the chamber walls down to about .060" thick. These held the service loads but burst when fired with a proof load.
"Most" guns have some amount of safety factor built in, but its still not advisable to exceed what they were designed for.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 388 Likes: 4
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 388 Likes: 4 |
Since this is a shotgun forum & it wasn't stated otherwise I assumed we were speaking of shotguns & not rifles.
Same physics apply, i.e. crimped shells and wads moving through a forcing cone vs neither in a muzzleloader. In fact, slight alterations in a shot shell crimp can have dramatic effects on the pressures generated in a given load, perhaps even more so than in a rifle load.
“I left long before daylight, alone but not lonely.”~Gordon Macquarrie
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 638 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 638 Likes: 2 |
Yes sorry I should have said, shotgun. I was specifically thinking caplock, however the principles are the same and interesting point re the vents/nipples, makes sense. Older caplocks sometimes have "vents" on the side, I gather the theory of these being excess pressure relief.This would have an even more pronounced effect. Forcing cones, crimp pressure, vents, nipples, all in all a few variables which could go either way. Drew I will read through the link you have kindly provided.
I really wish I could remember where I read about the slotted chambers, perhaps it was GT Garwood. Anyhow supposedly they were cut right through the length of the chamber and fired with normal loads to no ill effect. If I find it Ill post.
Cheers,
GDU.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 602
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 602 |
...Older caplocks sometimes have "vents" on the side, I gather the theory of these being excess pressure relief... I've read before that those vents were not to vent excess pressure, rather a theory at the time that the then new percussion system suffered a disadvantage in that the powder couldn't "breathe" to achieve best combustion, like the old vented flint system. Whether a like for like muzzle v breech/cartridge load would develop more or less pressure is an interesting question, regardless.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
Cadet's reason for the "Vented" percussions is also the one I have always heard. Some folks thought they needed to get Air for better burning. Of course the powder had its own built in oxygen supply, it could not have received enough through that little vent without it.
To answer the original question we really have to keep all other parts of the equation on an even basis. In my opinion we need to stick with ML'ing caplocks versus breech loading blackpowder shells with equal loads of powder & shot. Using smokeless in the shells would add a far different variable.
Black has the unique feature of burning at essentially the same rate regardless of outside influences. It would thus be far less sensitive to minor differences in Crimp Strength etc as would smokeless.
The original question though only asked about the two systems. "IF" the question was which has the higher pressure a black powder ML'er or a Smokeless powder breech loader the Breech loader will win for certain. Gotta compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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