doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Best English shotgun companies

Interesting thread. Canvas has done a magnificent job explaining my charts. I sincerely appreciate his input.

I'll just add a few thoughts. As a background, I started this project some 20 years ago because I couldn't make sense of the double gun market. I, like most supposed that quality and brand name were inseparable. It was a long and hard won learning to find this is just not so. It was jarring to my belief system to learn that any company could get out a best work gun via out-workers; within the trade "best work" was well known and understood. "Best work" had it's price, whether the work was done by in-workers or out-workers. The real trick with best work guns (or any other trade best work product) was to attract the commissions rather than the skill to deliver. It was also a bit of a surprise to discover that guns were actually made by flesh and blood workmen in manufacturies, as opposed to elves in forest cottages.

OK, so lets look at some examples. Lets take three best work SLE's in pristine condition (say the best one or two condition gun(s) of 100 "identical" examples): H&H Royal @ $40,000 (BV1-OQ1-CC1), Lang @ $30,000 (BV2-OQ1-CC1), or Midland @ $20,000 (BV3-OQ1-CC1). Which would you buy? OQ1 says they are all of the same Original Quality and CC1 says they are all in near new condition. The decision point is maker's name.

Same three guns but in differing Current Condition: $21,000 H&H Royal with significent use (BV1-OQ1-CC3), $21,000 Lang with limited use (slight finish wear, little shooting) (BV2-OQ1-CC2), or $20,000 Midland in pristine condition (BV3-OQ1-CC1). Your decision point is now current condition. Which?

Now, $6,200 H&H best work SLE in condition described as, "Shootable but needs expensive repairs or restored with stock and barrels replaced" (BV1-OQ1-CC7), $6,200 Lang "B" grade SLE with condition described as, "Heavy use, but no abuse" (BV2-OQ3-CC4), or $6,000 Midland best work boxlock ejector in pristine condition (BV3-OQ5-CC1). Now your decision point is a combination of Original Quality (including BLE and SLE) and Current Condition. Which?

Yes, it looks like a bit of a game, but follow the logic and I think you will find it useful.

Questions?

DDA

Rocketman,
I really appreciate the explaination which adds more meaning to your previous charts.
Karl

So DDA, did the same mechanic who turned out the Pristine Midland also contribute effort to the H&H Royal?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, the short answer is no, or at least not after H&H open up their own factory. Before that, H&H bought in guns from various makers. During this period, they, like William Evans, provided the strict quality control.

DDA

Just wondering since you note "Out-Workers" in one paragraph. So when was the QA/QC move by H&H?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Is anyone familiar with Benjamin Norman of Framlingham to offer a place in this discussion? I have a 1888 hammergun of his making that looks to be quite well made.

I'm curious how one ranks gunmakers. Not that it will matter much to me, but where is Greener in this ladder of 19th and early 20th century gun makers? I ask because I'm looking at one with an eye to purchase, though whether high or low ranking, my opinion on this particular gun won't change.

I'm also asking because I can't send Rocketman a PM - Rocket, your inbox is full... But I would like to hear more about your charts.

Brent,

Greener is a Brand Value of 2 (BV2). RM spreadsheet provides a guide to determine the used gun cost based on his research of auction prices. As you can see from his post above, the price is based on the BV, Original Quality (OQ), and Current Condition (CC).

Ken

In the specific instance I'm considering, I know the original price of the gun and the current conditions, so I think I could figure it out, but I don't have the charts.

In my case, I am mostly just curious. I'll buy the gun (or not) based on what it is worth to me, which may be far above or below market value, but I don't really know what market value is, and I'm curious.

Rocketman, if you share those charts with others, I would greatly appreciate a copy of them.

Brent,
I addition to seeing ads on the website for prices actually sold, I've used the Blue Book for grading and prices that are supposedly being realised across the nation.
Karl