doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Lack of detail in auction house descriptions

Why do auction houses (Gavin Gardiner-etc) list relatively few details on the guns they list for auction sale?

Is it because most buyers physically inspect?

Is it liability for errors?

Is it sloth?

I think Gavin does better than most. At least he gives a good description of the barrel condition, bore size and wall thickness. Only a dream with the smaller auction houses.

If the old adages are to "buy the gun, not the name", and "buy the barrels, not the gun", then you could probably add "buy the gun, not the vendor's description". I will rely on my inspection of it. A catalogue description just tells you what's there and what may be worth a closer look.

I can't speak about British auctions from experience, but judging from US companies, I'd say they really don't value internet bidders. We must not comprise a big enough share of their sales to justify an effort on their part to give us the information we need to make confident decisions. Why they bother to list their sales on line is a bit of a mystery if they can't give us good descriptions. The few times I've been burned, the companies have always offered some refund, but it would be better all around if they just told us up front what it was we were bidding on.

I've found the large auction houses to be reasonable although far from perfect. It's the small auction houses where sometimes they don't even identify percussion versus center fire properly that are the real risk. There's a given risk in remote purchase and I'm sure they're focused on the local market with anticipated inspection. They have open showings in most cases where you can assess to your heart's content. Visiting Holt's auction is very interesting. Having said that I almost never see anyone provide adequate details in any sale location either on dealers' websites, auctions or web sales sights. At a minimum I almost always have to ask for stock dimensions and wall thickness and some (most?) aren't up to supplying such information. In the absence of full details anticipated price range is a hint to condition as well. As to liability there is actually more pressure on disclosure in the UK than the US where there is more of a "take your chances" attitude to sales.

Jeremy

Lot 246. CHARLES BOSWELL 12g LIVE PIGEON HAMMER GUN.
This is a rare gun & in f-g condition considering its age. %98 blue rubbed off & no sign at all of any case colour. Professionally repaired crack in stock wrist with PVA wood glue & a 1/4 tank bolt for a cross bolt. Stock oval missing & sling swivel screwed in place.
Nicely figured stock, 13" LOP, cast on 3 1/2" DAH with checkering diamonds worn flat & filled with instant estapol from a previous refinish, especially worn on fore end which has slight movement & missing horn tip. Severe stock bruising & scars including chips & tear outs around both lock plates. The top tip is broken off the horn but plate which has beetle boring holes in it & Philips head screws.

30" barrels with file cut rib. This barrel set is beat to hell, with many small dings to top sides & undersides. Rib pattern is flattened in some areas as to be unrecognisable. Internal & external light to heavy rust is visible with many pits inside for the full length. Front bead missing. Choked 5/8 & 7/8. Chambers lengthened to 3" from 2 3/4.visible tool marks in forcing cones. Barrels do not ring sound.

Shade tree repairs to right side lock ie. arc welding & only fires sometimes. Miss matched hammers with one hammer screw being Philips head modern screw. All, that is every screw slot buggered with some being recut deeply with a hacksaw.
Engraving polished out in places & no sharp lines left on action.
Side clips have their edges nicked & bent outwards from the barrels being knocked on them, matching marks on outside of chambers. Pitted action face with badly oversize firing pin holes. File marks from someone cleaning the face up a bit.
Top lever to the left, slightly off face & untimed ejectors.
Trigger guard squashed flat & touching triggers, rear guard screw is a dry wall screw.

Considering its age & the dremel tool marks it is in fair condition for a duck boat banger. Many more years of being bashed about will blend in the modern repairs while causing severe damage to another aluminium boat.
O.M

Estimated bidding 2,000 to 3,000.

Sometimes it just comes down to lack of specific knowledge. They might know a 12 from a 16 but not know a tourch job from original case coloring. Tools and training to measure chokes and wall thickness is beyond most auction houses in the US. The only way to know for certain what you are bidding on is to evaluate the gun yourself or have someone do it for you.

Sometimes the descriptions are so vague or worse factually mistaken that they are useless as a guide. On the flip side there are the rare times when a rare item is listed and described as a fairly mundane gun and if you alone spot it you can come away with a prize win. And that is why sone of us keep looking at guns in small auction houses hoping for that gem in the dirt.

Agreed about the barrel condition, bore size and wall thickness.

That said, actual pictures though are pitiful. Descriptions aren't much better. If you ask for additional pictures you get "high resolution" pictures that look like they were taken with a Polaroid One-Step, and that's being generous. I think Gardiner's idea of "high resolution" pictures differs from most of the rest of the world. I somehow expect more/better from an Auction House associated with Sotheby's.

After previous experience, I won't buy here unless I have someone on the ground doing an inspection for me.

I can only speak for one U.K. Auction House that I sold some guns through. They miss-described five out of the six. Even though I had supplied details of provenance, patent details and in one case even with the Manufacturer's detailed provenance letter they still couldn't get it right. It was one of the bigger ones too but I shall refrain from naming them. One gun in virtually unused condition with full provenance was described as 'refurbished'. Someone got a real bargain with that one. Not amused and would never sell anything through them again. Lagopus.....

They're not the best certainly. One thing I like about Holts is in their prime sale a number of the photographs can't be zoomed in on to quite a good degree. That does nothing for mechanical examination of course but it has allowed me to get a better impression of cosmetics.

On the other hand things could be worse. Here are some random examples I found yesterday.

If anyone really believes this is a "hammer ejector" have at it - personally I don't:

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/aucti...45-a74d007885aa

And here's an Italian "percussion" gun:

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/aucti...5f-a7460116975e

If nothing else good for a laugh. And sometimes this works to one's benefit. I found a rather nice early Purdey thumblever retailed by Brebner of Darlingont at a local auction house. It had typos in the description so didn't show up on standard searches.

Jeremy