doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com I am a newcomer - please forgive

I am a newcomer - please forgive me if I have broken protocols. I own a Daniel Fraser, 12 bore sidelock, side by side. I have had it since 1972 (left by my grandfather). Serial number 3321. Can anyone help me as to the origins and dates of this gun? Cheers, Rob

Welcome to the club. Don't worry about protocols, I stomp all over them on a regular and daily basis. Our host, Dave, is a most tolerant one- we have some great additional sectors, custom rifles, European mfg. firearms, and some members who have a wealth of knowledge about doubles, and are glad to share it. Enjoy!! RWTF

You're forgiven Rob, post in peace and sin no more.

Welcome to the site! I'm afraid I don't know anything about your gun but others here certainly will.

Steve

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=297414

That link might help a bit, For more detailed info on your specific gun, please post pics of the proof marks and all other markings o the barrels and the rest of the gun.

http://www.internetgunclub.com/ has good info, you may have to register to access.

Regards,

The Daniel Fraser name is now owned by John Dickson of Edinburgh http://www.john-dickson.com/ The records do not exist anymore. You are in luck to some degree as the author Donald Dallas works in the Edinburgh shop and is currently researching Fraser guns with a view to bringing out another of his excellent books. He may be interested in what you have and would be the best person to tell you about it. Try him at: http://donalddallas.com/dickson.html Good luck. Lagopus.....

Here is what IGC have Messrs Fraser:

D & J Fraser
Other Names Daniel Fraser & Co; Daniel Fraser & Co Ltd
Address1 22 Greenside Place
Address2 18 Leith Walk (172 Easter Road)
Address3 4 Leith Street Terrace (172 Easter Road)
Address4 4 Leith Street Terrace
City/Town Edinburgh
County
State/Region/Province Scotland
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun & rifle maker
Other Address 48 Dover Street, London.
Dates 1873-1919

Notes
Daniel McKintosh Fraser was born in Mernes, Inverness. Inverness-shire, in 1848. He was the son of Lauchelan Fraser (b.1819 in Mernes) a coach body maker, and Mary McKintosh (b.1825 in Mernes). The family moved to Edinburgh in 1853, and in 1859 Daniel was apprenticed to a venetian blind maker. Obviously, he did not find this apprenticeship to his liking, and after only a few months he was apprenticed as a gunmaker to Alexander Henry.
The family were recorded in the 1861 census living at St Mitchelle Court, Tower, Greenside, Edinburgh, and comprised Lauchelan, Mary, John (b.1846 a coach body maker), Daniel and Kate (b.1853).

At about the age of 17 Daniel, like Henry, joined the Edinburgh Rifle Volunteers. In 1866, when he was 18, he was sent to Turkey to instruct the Sultan's bodyguard in the use of Henry rifles. In 1869 won the Duke of Cambridge's prize for rifle shooting.

The 1871 census records the family living at 9 Hercules Street. By this time it had increased by three daughters, Catherine (b.1854), Isabella (b.1863) and Jane (b.1866).

In 1873 he and his brother, John, who had foregone working as a coach body maker, established their own business, D & J Fraser, at 22 Greenside Place; it appears that in 1874 and 1875 the firm also had premises at 18 Leith Walk. John appears to have been Daniel's shopman and bookeeper.

On 21 April 1877 A Henry and D Fraser registered patent No. 1559 which covered an elaborate and ingenious combination of changes to a rifle's trigger mechanism and stock to create a unique target rifle for back position shooting).

In 1878 the firm moved to 4 Leith Street Terrace; between 1878 and 1911 the firm's workshops were at 172 Easter Road where, at the end of the century, as many as 20 gun makers were employed.

On 13 April 1880 Daniel registered patent no. 5111 for a drop down barrel breech action cocking mechanism and automatic safety. On 23 December 1880 he patented his famous falling block rifle (No. 5403) and a rear sight which folded down into the stock. Single shot falling block rifles were more accurate for target shooting and cheaper to make than double rifles which were not needed for deer stalking. About 400 of these falling block rifles were made, early ones with a side lever and a safety catch inside the trigger guard. The design changed over time, the safety moving to the top tang and the side lever giving way to a top lever. Later, Daniel invented the "Velox" expanding rifle bullet, this had a soft nose and four longitudinal splits in its nickel jacket so that it would expand on contact.

For some time Daniel had fitted Davidson telescopic sights (see Col. David Davidson of Haddington), but on 6 November 1885 Daniel registered patent No. 13444 for removable mounts for a telescope sight and a raised cheek piece.

On 31 August 1888 Daniel Fraser registered patent No. 1412 for a short barrel rib, telescope sight mount modification and falling block safety.

In about 1888 John Fraser left the partnership to establish his own business as a gun maker. The firm of D & J Fraser was re-named Daniel Fraser & Co.

In the 1891 census Daniel, described as a gun and rifle manufacturer, was recorded married to Jessie R (b.1856 in Leith) so Mary must have died, probably in the late 1870s. Daniel and Jessie were recorded at 6 Leopold Place. None of Daniel and Mary's children were living with them but Daniel and Jessie had three daughters and two sons, Margaret R (b.1880), Jessie R (b.1883), and Mary M (b.1885), and Donald M (b.1882) and James H (b.1886).

On 25 October 1895 D Fraser registered patent No. 20109 for a bolt action mechanism.

The 1901 census records the family living at Sycamore Bank, Duddington. Daniel described himself as a 53 year old gun maker, Donald M was a 19 year old gun maker's apprentice, James H was 13 years old and still at school.

Daniel Fraser died in December 1901 aged only 53, and the firm was taken over by his son Donald M Fraser who had been apprenticed to Alexander Henry; James H Fraser had just been apprenticed to Alexander Henry.

On 16 April 1903 Donald M Fraser registered patent No. 8640 for a selective single trigger mechanism.

Between 1909 and 1911 the firm opened a shop in London at 48 Dover Street, but in 1911 it closed due to declining levels of business and the firm became a limited liability company.

On 2 September 1915 D M Fraser and D Fraser & Co registered patent No. 12605 individually adjusted vertical and horizontal telescopic sight wires.

Declining levels of business during the First World War led to the firm closing in 1916. Donald M Fraser moved to Glasgow and was employed in munitions manufacture (employer unknown), and James H Fraser enlisted in the army.

In 1918 the firm was re-opened by Donald Fraser, at 174 Montgomery Street, Edinburgh, but continued lack of demand resulted in it closing in 1919.

A firm named Fraser & Gibbs is known to have traded in Edinburgh at about this time, this may have been Donald M Fraser, but whether or not Gibbs was George Gibbs of Bristol is not known.

In about 1925 Donald M Fraser went into partnership with A C McColl, formerly the foreman of Daniel Fraser & Co Ltd, as McColl & Fraser at 25 St James's Street. In 1930 they were recorded at 15 Bridge Street, Dunfirmline, and in about 1935 they traded from 22 Canmore Street. The firm was not recorded in 1937 or after that date. On leaving the army, James H Fraser succeeded to the Daniel Fraser name but moved to join Alfred Sanders of Maidstone in Kent. The name of Daniel Fraser was sold in about 1970 to an American, Thad Scott, who later sold it to B J Horton Corcoran who opened a business under that name in Peddiston, Cromarty. In 1997 the name was sold to Alasdair Laing and Barry Wilcox of John Dickson & Son of Edinburgh.

The records of D & J Fraser and Daniel Fraser have been lost. Records exist for the new firm of Dan'l Fraser from 1984 (see John Dickson & Son).

Other Info
As Dan'l Fraser & Co Ltd the firm sold Eley Gastight "Brown" cartrudges (post 1910) and "Pegamoid" cartridges under their own name.
Notes on James H Fraser
At some time James H Fraser appears to have opened his own business at an unknown address in Edinburgh where Andrew Sanders worked for him. In about 1925 or perhaps a little later, Andrew Sanders left the firm to take over his father's business in Maidstone, Kent (Alfred Sanders, later A Sanders (Maidstone) Ltd) and, at some time in the mid-1930s, James H Fraser joined him. James Fraser later became managing director of A Sanders (Maidstone) Ltd and remained with them until about 1966.

Dear Rob,
Welcome.
Please put up some fine pics so we can drool......where are you from?
This mostly a great place, mostly good folks here
Cheers to you
Franc

Hello Rob
Welcome on your first posting.

The address on the barrel would help in determining year of production.
Also the proof marks on the action flat and barrels would also help us in determining year of production

Thank you for posting here, it is fun for us to chase this kind of thing

YES, pictures would be helpful.
You do have to use a photo hosting service like
Photobucket or Hunt101

Mike

According to Brown's books its between 1896-1904. The Fraser of books of that era are gone so this is based on proof marks of observed Fraser guns.