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#447203 06/15/16 01:07 PM
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Anybody seen the latest issue of Sports Afield? The "Custom Shop" department features an article by a well known writer on early Springfield sporters.

He writes, "And American servicemen did not know bolt action rifles until the Spanish-American War, when Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders charged up Kettle Hill in 1898 carrying the new Krag Jorgensen rifles in .30-40 Krag loaded with black powder."

Say what?

And it went over the editor's head as well.

Craigster #447210 06/15/16 02:31 PM
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i thought volunteers had trapdoor 45/70

mc #447223 06/15/16 04:38 PM
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The 10th Cavalry (Buffalo soldiers) had trapdoors with blackpowder. Ted's RR had the 30-40 which unless I am terrible mistaken were smokeless. I believe they also had 2 colt machine guns. Weren't these refereed to as "potato diggers"?

Craigster #447266 06/15/16 09:54 PM
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The Rough Riders were much impressed by the Mauser rifles the Spanish were firing at them. Both for the rapidity of the fire (stripper clips) and that smokeless ammo they could not directly locate…
All you have is criticism for the story?

Last edited by SDH-MT; 06/15/16 09:55 PM. Reason: edit
Craigster #447276 06/15/16 10:58 PM
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US servicemen actually did carry some blackpowder bolt-action carbines in action, Hotchkiss .45-70s against the Apache. But not many, and not for long.

SDH-MT #447284 06/15/16 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: SDH-MT
The Rough Riders were much impressed by the Mauser rifles the Spanish were firing at them. Both for the rapidity of the fire (stripper clips) and that smokeless ammo they could not directly locate…
All you have is criticism for the story?


Did not criticize the story at all, in fact, I thought it was good. But the fact remains, the 30-40 Krag was not loaded with black powder.

Craigster #447371 06/16/16 07:26 PM
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This is Cartridges of the World, Barnes Pg.271. My go-to reference about cartridges. But you are probably correct. What are your references?
I have not seen the story in print yet...

Last edited by SDH-MT; 06/16/16 07:27 PM.
Craigster #447381 06/16/16 08:18 PM
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From The Rifle in America, Philip Sharpe:

In his description of the original Krag Model 1892 "regulation rifle", he writes "The twist of this early barrel was one turn in ten inches, and it used a round nose, cupronickel jacketed bullet weighing 220 grains with 38 grains of smokeless powder."

Bolt Action Rifles, Frank De Hass:

On the Krag, "Adopted with the new rifle was a new .30 caliber cartridge. Using a rimmed, bottleneck case it was the first U.S. military cartridge loaded with smokeless powder. Officially the .30 Army or .30 Government or, more popularly, the 30-40 Krag."

Craigster #447417 06/17/16 12:09 AM
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In Brophy's The Krag Rifle, he quotes from the 1893/94 reports from the Chief of Ordnance - "The regular manufacture of service ball cartridge ammunition for the .30-caliber magazine rifle, model 1892, using smokeless powder of domestic production (Peyton), was commenced at the Frankford Arsenal in May last, and up to the end of June about 200,000 rounds had been made and issued or placed in store."

According to Hackley, Woodin & Scranton in History of Modern U.S. Military Small Arms Ammunition Volume 1: 1880-1939 (Macmillan Co.1967) compressed black powder loads were tested during the initial developmental efforts (c.1889) - but velocities were extremely low. It appears that the first cartridges loaded with smokeless power were produced in September 1890. Blank (1893) and Gallery practice (1895) cartridges were initially loaded with black power.

Craigster #447420 06/17/16 12:25 AM
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Blackpowder loading, but probably not at Kettle Hill.
I stand corrected.

I do have that issue, May/June 16. I was confusing it with the next, due out anytime. About a Niedner Krag stocked by Shelhamer; mighty fine rifle. More on the 30-40 including some of my own experiences.

Or maybe the next issue is about Elmer Keith's Hoffman #1 Springfield in .400 Whelen? I lose track writing them so far in advance of publication...

Last edited by SDH-MT; 06/17/16 12:29 AM. Reason: edit
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