doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Looking at a JP Sauer and need assistance

I'm looking at a JP Sauer SLNE, SN 878XX, 12 ga. It's stamped "The Knock-About Gun" on top of left barrel; Lengerke & Detmold, NY atop right barrel. Barrels has 2 9/16" chambers marked Krupp Steel, Germany (abutting standing breech). Sauer proofs on flats, along with crowns, and 13/1 left and 13/4 right (both followed by circled 12). Other letters on flats (with adjacent small crowns): B, S, U on right; and B, S, W on left. SN repeated on left barrel, under which are numbers 2 04 0. Has dolls head ext. and cocking indicators. Minimal engraving (vaguely reminds me of a basic S05 B-gun).

I thought Sauer SNs were continuous, so am surprised to find a lower number than my 101XXX Prussian Sauer Daly BLNE.

I'm curious about date of mfg, and any other info.

Am also looking for some ballpark figure on value. It's not quite 90% condition, barrel blue becoming brownish, few functionally insignificant barrel dings, almost no case colors left, no cracks in very pretty tiger buttstock, semi-pg to composition buttplate. Right barrel is .722 and cyl. Left is .726 and about .004. There are no parallel sections to suggest chokes being opened by way of reamer. Mechanically perfect.

Thanks,

Sam

From the serial number list Volume 15, Issue 3, Double Gun Journal page 88 your gun is from 1900-1901 production. Without being able to see condition I wouldn't care to guess value. Sounds like it is a field grade which the Knock-Abouts were designed to fulfill. I would be surprised if it got above $1800 though. The gun doesn't have Nitro Proof (which didn't exist yet under the German proof rules) so be careful with pressures.

Jerry,

Thanks. I had expected to see "Prussia" stamped on the water table, but possibly this was more consistently stamped on the Daly Sauers?

Sam

Nitro proof was available as an auxillary proof in 1900 Germany but not very often applied, due to the rules of proof creating a massive overload. I have a Sauer/VL&D not too far away in SN from this one. Mine was likely built for a waterfowler as it is about 7½ lbs with 30" tubes & chambered for 2 3/4" shells. Mine is a back action sidelock with a rather unique sear arrangement which seems very well thought out. It is by no means a "Best" gun, has some scroll engraving, but seems to be very well made & is still tight & on face. I think perhaps you either mis-read the 13/4 mark or it was misstamped. Both should be 13/1 which denoteds a bore size at time of proof large enough to accept a .719" gauge but not accepting a .729" one. There should be no 13/4 mark.
Miller

2-piper, when I said the nitro proof didn't exist yet it was in reference to a required Nitro proof. The optional proofs with powders other than blackpowder were available according to proof rules and hopefully someday I will see a few of these optional proof marks to learn more. Apparently they confused even the folks using them as some were marked with the proof load data and others with a service load, resulting in a clearer definition for the law of 1911.

Hard to explain why this gun lacks the Prussia stamp when it was obviously an export gun headed to USA. I forget exactly when the US law requiring country of origin markings began, but I think it was earlier than this gun. I will have to go look that up.

Is this gun marked as Sauer and Son or Sauer and Sohn? If the later it would indicate it may not have been intended for export, again an incongruity with the VL&D markings.

On right side of frame:

J.P. Sauer & Son
Maker & Patentee

Seller wants $2k. Given condition and .000/.004 chokes I will most likely pass.

Thanks for the help, guys.

Sam

Jerry; When you said it didn't exist I was taking it you meant it was not even available as an option. I totally agree with your comments from last post. My Sauer/VL&D (SN 87934) seems to be marked very much like this one. It also has the English spelling for Son as well as "Safe" on the tang exposed when slide is in rear safe position. It has black powder proofs only along with the Sauer man at front of each flat & the two sizes of crowns which have been discussed here previously on right flat. Also the Krupp Steel / Germany around breeches of bbls. My bbls do not carry the Crown/B mark (proofed in finished condition) but are choked in both bbls so have the Crown/W on both. On front of right lockplate is;
J.P. Sauer & Son
Maker & Patentee
while on front of left plate is;
von LENGERKE & DETMOLD
US Agents, New York

I believe we have discussed an old 1907 drilling I have which does have the optional Nitro Proofs. It has a Crown/N (does not have the word Nitro) on each bbl along with the service loads. In this case (16ga) 2gr Sch P/28.3gr Bl for the shot bbls & 2gr GBP/St M G for the 8x58R Sauer rifle bbl.