doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Prussian Sauer

Think you are right, Raimey, the riddle is solved! No FUBAR, Mike!

Cheers,
Wolfgang

Gary:

This platform is the epitome of a boxlock platform. In my opinion, the only more proper A&D Body Action platform would have been finished by Lindner. & echoing M-4's opinion, the same mechanics may have contributed similar effort. I hasten to say you got in on the lower end of it's realized value. Hopefully when it arrives you can chalk the all the marks & pleasure us with additional images.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

And again, right off I don't recall see a non-inland/destined for export Sauer tubeset that was 32" so it would be really rare. But let me look.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

It is not a Modell Nr. 40 but possibly a Modell Nr. 3, special order w/ long tubes.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Gunwolf,

I'm not sure if the Wikepedia version is correct. If you are standing in the blast zone of a nuclear device, you are "FUBAR"; you don't have a problem, you are part of the problem.

I guess the over stamping is either the mistake, or caused by the mistake. Neither takes away from the gun.
Mike

>>>And the word "Made in Prussia" is an export give-away and might indicate a later proof date.<<<

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Gentlemen: I thought the 1890 McKinley Tariff Act, which came into force in 1891-2, required the single name of the originating country / autonomous region to be stamped on imported products from abroad (e.g. "Germany," "Nippon," etc.). While we do see "Made in Prussia" stamped on the action body sides of some Charles Daly guns, or alternatively the name of the autonomous region, such as "Thuringia" after "Charles Daly" earlier located there too, significantly we do not find the "Made in ..." stamp applied to the water-table until after mid-1921, when U.S. customs bureau regulations changed and the "Made in [such and such country]" stamp was thereafter required. I do not believe the former or latter stamp is applied specifically to the water-table before the aforesaid dates of requirement.

Moreover, if we believe the subject gun is of 'Prussian Era' manufacture / or then finished, the question begged is: Which era is that of which we speak? Since the question has also arisen concerning the existence or longevity of a political entity or state called Prussia, we will briefly address it. In November 1918, the petty monarchies were abolished and the nobility lost its political power during the German Revolution of 1918-19. The Kingdom of Prussia was consequently abolished to form a republic, the Free State of Prussia, a state of Germany from 1918 until 1933. From 1933, Prussia lost its independence as a result of an internal coup, when the Nazi regime successfully established its "Gleichschaltung" laws in pursuit of a unified state. With the defeat of the Nazi regime ending the Second World War, the division of Germany into allied-occupation zones and the separation of its territories east of the Oder�Neisse line, which were incorporated into Poland and the Soviet Union, the State of Prussia ceased to exist in 1945 (It was formally liquidated by the Allied Control Council in February, 1947). So we are addressing many possible decades; and accordingly, it is likelier the gun was manufactured sometime prior to the end of Prussia's existence as a state, though necessarily after 1921.

What all this treating of history means is that the subject gun is of post-1921 manufacture, and thus is not a Lindner-finished gun or a product of the Golden Age, when the most sought-after Prussian-made Charles Daly / H. A. Lindner-finished guns were completed.


Regards,

Edwardian

Fellas:

Keep it up & someone is going to get their monocle smashed as this is your shot across the bow. It does not have have a Nitro stamp & does not wear a post 9/1923 date stamp. So unless you contact Jim Cate & P.O. Haggards of Sweden & they say otherwise, I might be inclined to listen. It was issued a serial number in the early 1900s and could have been completed some 10 years later but when you get to late 1923, it will wear a proof date & a Nitro stamp unless it was deemed to travel to a country that did not have a proof facility. There are some 125xxx that were completed late 1920s but all this getting wound around the axle on Made in Prussia is pretty much irrelevant to the date of issue nor of completion; grasping at straws one might say. Now, I like a good rock throwing contest as well as any one & I'm giving you fair warning.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Gentlemen: I do think this is a Prussian-made, J. P. Sauer & Son gun (Would the manufacturer's name-stamp be in-part "Sohn" rather than "Son" if not intended for export, I wonder?) because there is every indication it is exactly that. We are agreed on that point. My above comments dealt with the indisputable fact that the subject gun significantly bears the "Made in Prussia" stamp on its water-table and not on the sides of the action body as some earlier lower grades evince, which would indicate that it was imported post-mid-1921 into the United States due to the required presence of the stamp as worded after that date by U.S. customs regulations. Otherwise, that particular wording for the country of origin would not be present on the water-table. That the stamp is impressed into the water-table of the subject gun is telling. I am unaware of examples that would inform me such is not the case, or that such a stamp ("Made in" such and such country) was present on the water-table of U.S.-imported guns prior to mid-1921. If there are contradicting examples of that very language being present on an import's water-table prior to 1921, I would very much like to know of it / them.

We will want to keep in mind that we are all conjecturing on this matter, in order to benefit the questioner, presumably, as well as add to our knowledge base overall. To me, the idea behind this means of worldwide communication is to share and thereby gain knowledge, present ideas and voice opinions civilly, not overbear, irritate the participants, or attempt to dissuade them from participating altogether.

That the subject gun may have been manufactured before 1912, in accordance with the decipherment of certain proof marks and other indicia present, is not in question. Although, because of the presence of the post-1921 stamp on the water-table, such might also suggest it was inventoried for some time and subsequently completed before being exported from Germany to the United States. (Would the gun need to again be proofed, say post-1923, before being exported to a non-proof country like the U.S., is unknown to me without performing more research--Though somehow I doubt it.) Because it may have been in inventory and, therefore, would neither have been available to be finished contemporaneously by H. A. Lindner nor its completion supervised by him prior to its later exportation to the United States, I posited that this gun was not a 'Golden Age' gun, which would seem a logical and reasonable assertion. Nor is the assertion contradicted by the foregoing dating indicators. As well, I do not recall remarking the presence of Lindner proprietary marks or persuasively Lindner-defining characteristics anywhere.

It was not and is not uncommon today for English or the German / Prussian gunmakers or manufacturers to inventory guns for later completion, sometimes for many years, or to await orders for particular types of guns before their completion, which awaited orders may take years before they are received. One type of sporting gun awaiting an order may have been that for a gun with an unusually or even uniquely long barrel, such as that affixed to the subject gun (I think the 32-inch barrels were not intended for pigeon but for wildfowling.). I could give a number of examples based on my own collection of this business practice, but as everyone here knows of the practice, it is hardly necessary to further elaborate.

Whether the subject gun was made before some date or touched by the master's hand is of little matter in terms of the ultimate enjoyment of this gun by its eventual owner. Provenance is just an additive to the appreciation of a particular gun, but not a necessary. And here is an excellent vintage gun in need of purchase and for use as intended. I wholeheartedly wish the buyer well and good sport.


Regards to all,

Edwardian

In reference to the idea that 'Made In Prussia' is only present on the watertable of guns imported post 1921.

The pic below is the watertable of a Sauer Daly 16 with a 'Made In Prussia' stamp on it.

I believe the serial number places the gun's manufacture circa 1904 per the serial number list posted earlier in this thread. The gun lacks any nitro proof marks (and does not have the word 'nitro' stamped on it). Also, there is no date of proof stamped on the gun. The usual 'U' 'W' 'S' proof marks are present on the barrel flats.

The original owner lived in Grand Rapids, Michigan for many years. His initials and the inscription 'GR Mich' are on the initial shield which is still present in the buttstock. Significantly, he moved to Pensacola Fl in 1916 and lived there continuously until his death in 1930.

I think that all of this would indicate pretty strongly the gun was imported prior to 1916 when the original owner was still residing in Grand Rapids. The gun never went back to Michigan, remaining in Florida with a local family for many years, and then on to Atlanta, GA with a descendant of that family, which is where I purchased it last year.