doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Vintage Barrel Composition

I have seen this color scheme after rusting and etching stated both ways many times. In the majority of cases, it is said that the steel portion ends up black (or brown) and the iron portion ends up white... just as Drew has stated above. But here is a source that says "During etching, built up black ferro-ferric oxide is removed more rapidly from the steel portions of the barrel than the iron portions." See step # 7.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/18MIv...ref=2&pli=1

Most often, it is said that the ferric chloride etching solution acts more aggressively upon the iron than the steel, but if the barrel is left in the etching solution too long, the black oxide will be removed from both. Also, I have most often heard or read that if the etch is too strong, it will attack the iron more aggressively and begin to cause the surface to become uneven as the iron is eroded. I'd like to actually rust, boil, and etch a piece of steel and a piece of iron just to see which one ends up black and which one ends up white. If I had to take an educated guess, I'd be inclined to go with the way Drew said it, just guessing that the steel would be slightly more resistant to corrosive agents than iron. But unlike Larry Brown, I have sometimes been wrong. Does anyone know for certain which is correct?

Steve: here's what the knife guys say, but we know they've been breathing fumes in a shed a bit too long
http://knifedogs.com/archive/index.php/t-42359.html

LOL!! Yea. You never know what knifemakers have been huffing!

Regarding the comments in this knifemaker�s thread, the colors that they are discussing come from the degraded steel left on the surface of the metal after etching. Knifemakers often use this degraded material for the coloration on damascus knife blades. Damascus gun barrels are typically finished by a rusting process. Knifemakers seldom use a rusting process for finishing knife blades.

Modern damascus knife blades and old damascus gun barrels are not quite apples and oranges. As they are both made of ferrous materials, some things are related. But the steels used, the heat treatment given each and the finishing processes employed are all different.

There is a lot of confusion about whether the iron or the steel is white in finished damascus gun barrels. I think we should start a new thread to discuss this. Maybe we can come to a consensus on this topic. We have a bunch of guys on this forum, who have finished damascus gun barrels. What do they say? Do they believe the iron finishes white? What are their observations during the finishing process?

Drew posed a couple photos that are a perfect example of the kind of thing that gives me pause on this finishing topic. They are the photos of the barrels with Rosen and Three iron Oxford patterns. The weld lines on the Rosen barrel are black. The weld lines on the Oxford barrel are white. Why?? What caused this difference? How does the fact that welds lines can color differently affect the probability of being able to predict whether the iron or steel will finish white?

Yes, it's tongue in cheek but there lies some truth in it as well. Shotgunning is like sex...applying too much science gets stale in a hurry.

The most boring thing in the world would be a shotgun that throws a perfect pattern and never misses.

Interesting observation Steve, about weld lines coloring differently. I believe you've mentioned back a while about the significance of the chosen finishing process on how the different components color. I've wondered if it's possible to reverse the dark/light coloring on the same piece of barrel just by the finishing schedule.

Craig,
I have wondered about this same thing. But the more I understand about the processes of etching and coloring ferrous materials, the more I am convinced that the outcome of coloring can only have one result.

For comparison, Springfield 1903 Rifle Barrel Steel

https://books.google.com/books?id=KdARAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA1073&lpg
Mining and Metallurgy: Published Monthly by the American Institute of Mining and Metallurgical Engineers, 1919

The Government specifications for barrel steel for model 1903 rifle (Springfield) call for carbon 0.50 to 0.60 per cent., manganese 1.00 to 1.29 per cent., silicon under 0.25 per cent., sulfur under 0.06 per cent., phosphorus under 0.08 per cent. The minimum physical requirements are: Tensile strength, 110,000 lb. per sq. in.; yield point 75,000 lb. per sq. in.

Three barrels were analyzed with an average of:
Carbon .48%
Manganese .98%
Sulfur .05%
Phosphorus .06%
This would be similar to AISI 1551 with slightly higher sulfur and phosphorus.

Winchester Nickel Steel, introduced for the Model 1894 rifle about 1896: 100,000 - 107,000 psi with an elastic limit of 81,000 psi
Marlin �Special Smokeless Steel� introduced for the Model 1893 rifle in 1897 and Model 21 Grade C Pump in 1907: 100,000 psi
Remington Ordnance Steel, introduced in 1897 for the 1894 Hammerless Double: 110,000 psi with an elastic limit of 60,000 psi

I've not been able to find a composition analysis of the Marlin or Remington steels

BTW: It is assumed the "Remington Steel" used on the A Grade Hammerless Model of 1894 (until 1897), K Grade (Model 1900) Hammerless, and (1894) Hammerless Grade �F.E.� Trap Gun (introduced in 1906) is similar to Marlin �Special Rolled Steel� and Winchester �Rolled Steel�.
The 1897 Remington catalog stated �Remington blued steel barrels are manufactured in our own works� and the Sears catalog No. 112 c. 1902 states the K Grade has �fine Decarbonized steel barrels�.

Col. William Brophy, Arsenal of Freedom - The Springfield Armory, 1890-1948
Krag-Jorgensen Model 1894 .30-40
C < .5%
Mn < .6%
S < .034%
P < .045%
AISI 1044

Roy Dunlap Gunsmithing, 1963
https://books.google.com/books?id=7Ab12fHr8y0C&pg=PA181&lpg
Army �Ordnance Steel�
C - .45 - .55%
Mn - 1.00 - 1.3%
P < .05%
S < .05%
AISI 1551
Tensile strength 110,000 psi; yield strength 75,000 psi
�I believe the Savage Arms Corp. uses this (steel) for all center-fire rifles.�

ANOTHER CALL FOR BARREL SEGMENTS and then I'll let this thread rest.

Thanks to the graciousness of Dennis Potter I was able to tensile test a segment of "Krupp Essen" (maker and age unknown) and a segment of Remington 3200. I doubt if the Remington barrel was the cursed 1140 Manganese Sulfide Modified Carbon Steel because the tensile strength was 121,000 psi!

SO this summer I'll take both segments, and a couple more pattern welded segments, by METL for composition analysis (at $75 per test ). I would very much like some other pre-WWI new fangled Fluid Steel barrels IF you know the source; such as Stevens "High Pressure Compressed Forged Steel", Ithaca "Smokeless Powder Steel", or especially Hunter Arms London, Crown, or Nitro Steel.

Please email at revdoc2@cox.net if you have a chunk of barrel and thanks! The analysis only requires an about 2" square.

BTW: I have no knowledge of what 'Zircon' has done with the almost 40 barrel segments he received.