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======= *94 Charles Riggs era, August 1922-1950? TEXT =======

*94 Charles Riggs era, August 1922-1950?:

In August 1922 The Reilly name was bought by a sporting goods dealer named Charles Riggs (most Reilly history summaries put the date of purchase as 1917; this is belied by the dates of newspaper advertising). Riggs apparently decided he could use the name to promote his premium line of guns (possibly built by Osborne/Midland or perhaps Holloway - based on similarity of engraving).
. . . . .attached - 1st ads:
. . . . . . . . . .18 Aug 1922, “Essex Newsman”*94a
“Guns: Reilly and Co., Famous Gunmakers 100 years in Oxford Street, ask you to send for List, 107 Bishopsgate, London. C11."
. . . . . . . . . .30 Sep 1922, “Essex Newsman”*94b
"Guns: Best English Make, £4 to £40 to suit your pocket. Send for full illustrated list. E.M. Reilly & Co., Ltd., 107 Bishopsgate, London. C11. Estd 100 years in Oxford Street".

Riggs Started off in Broad Street Station, London marketing BSA products with his name on them in the early 1900's.*94c In 1912 he moved to 107, Bishopsgate where he continued to market all sorts of BSA goods including the motorcycles” *94d, *94e, *94f (known colloquially to 1960’s riders as “Bastard Stopped Again"). He expanded into other sporting goods such as tennis and golf and continued selling guns. His catalogs include all sorts of BSA firearms and usually advertisements for .303 SMLE Enfields and the like.

He originally had his own “Riggs” brand of sporting guns (built in Birmingham):
. . . . .Advertisement for a “Riggs Gun” *94g
. . . . .Case and Label for a “Riggs gun.”*94h

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Per internet chatter (unconfirmed), he marketed his own ammunition under the name "the Bishop" made by Eley up to at least 1914.

He also wrote a book in 1915 “Practical Points of Musketry.”*94i He had been a member of the Essex Yoemanry Militia for many years and for 20 years beginning in 1911 sponsored an annual reunion of the Essex Yoemanry.*94j He brokered the sale of 1,500 Martini-Henry's to local militia groups early in WWI.

The Riggs' 1922-23 catalog has the following introduction for his “Reilly” brand:*94k

. . . . .“The WORLD FAMED HOUSE OF E.M. REILLY & Co., late of Oxford Street, London, W. is now amalgamated with the house of CHARLES RIGGS & Co. Ltd of 107 Bishopsgate, London: Ecr, thus making one of the strongest combinations ever known in the Gun Making and Sports Goods business….

. . . . .”The 'House of Reilly' is too well known in gun circles to need any comments here having been established nearly 100 years and its reputation for craftsmanship and value is a household word. All our guns in future will be named “E.M. Reilly & Co., London” thus adding another 25% to the value should you ever desire to sell it.”


Riggs-Reilly guns usually have "E.M. Reilly & Co., London" on the ribs; Sometimes "E.M. Reilly & Co., Ltd." As a further identifier, a lot of the Rigg's-Reilly's have "Prince of Wales" half pistol grip stocks, something the original Reilly firm almost never made. They were proofed in Birmingham. Riggs'-Reilly named guns have six-digit serial numbers and appear to begin at around 128000. The earliest Riggs serial number so far identified is 128466). A Riggs "Reilly" with a serial number in the 150000's is known to exist.

Examples of extant Riggs-Reillys:
. . . . .SN 128466 - E.M. Reilly & Co., London. 12 bore SxS Shotgun, 29" barrels. Nfi. 1st extant Riggs-Reilly*94l
. . . . .SN 131065 - E.M. Reilly & Co., London. 12 bore SxS Shotgun. BLNE. 30” barrels. 2.5” chambers*94m
. . . . .SN 150570 - E.M. Reilly & Co., London. 12ga. Shotgun SxS. Boxlock non-ejector. (Brm proofs) Last extant Riggs-Reilly*94n

Riggs stopped specifically mentioning the Reilly name in advertisements by January 1923 but continued to label his guns as "E.M. Reilly & Co., London." Per serial numbers he appears to have sold well in excess of 20,000 'Reilly" guns over the course of some 20-25 years.

Riggs was quite a self-promoting character and comes across in advertisements and articles as something of an annoying, pretentious, status-climbing, individual with a large ego and a huge amount of hubris and energy. There are pictures of him medalled like a royal prince claiming marksmanship trophies that the historical record doesn't support.*94o He billed himself as a yeomanry sergeant early on*94p but had promoted himself to Lieutenant later on in life.*94q He very well could have rubbed the gun establishment the wrong way.

Comment: Reading Rigg's letters to the London Press etc., can be grating (such as this 1914 letter about his son having "the time his life" on the western front in WWI).*94r The man would have made millions in the USA with his energy and without the class chip on his shoulder. In UK the way he presented himself and his business might have resonated with the BSA motorcycle crowd, which were his customers also, but likely was deadly to the upper classes; he made a lot of money - helped soccer clubs, contributed money to a down and out boxer, etc. - but apparently not a lot of friends in the close-knit gun making fraternity.

The Riggs guns, all 22,000 + of them, are not ugly...but are now regarded as "journeyman guns," made in Birmingham "for the trade" of medium quality. Who negotiated the sale of the Reilly name is unknown. Whether a Reilly was involved in the design of the Riggs-Reilly's is not known.
. . . . .But what a come-down in advertising: from weekly ads in "The Field" and almost daily advertisements in the major London newspapers, the major travel guides of the country and the most important sporting events of the year, to Rigg's tiny advertisements in the "Essex Newsman," the "Chelmsford Chronicle" and the Bracon, Wales County papers

Riggs allegedly remained in business until 1966 (not confirmed – although eyewitnesses remember walking into the sporting goods store in the early 1960’s and seeing only a few BSA air-guns).

======= *94 Charles Riggs era, August 1922-1950? END TEXT =======

Last edited by Argo44; 06/05/22 11:12 AM.

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========== *95 Conclusion TEXT ==========

*95 Conclusion:

Over the course of 90 years the Reilly's sold all types of guns in various qualities using all types of actions. Reilly serial numbered about 33,000 guns from circa 1828 to 1912, all built by them. The guns that they made had an artistic elegance and balance, which is unmistakable. Reilly was one of the first to use highly figured French walnut for their stocks and their engraving, for the most part floral scroll work, was in a unique style and consistently classy. Reilly's best guns were as good as those produced anywhere in England at the time.

Gene Williams, Sep 05, 2018; last updated Apr 28, 2022

======== *95 Conclusion END HISTORY ========

Last edited by Argo44; 06/05/22 11:13 AM.

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THIS PROJECT IS NOW FINISHED:

. . . . .I. The case for Reilly making his own guns, 33,000 of them over 90 years, and being heavily involved in all aspects of UK London gun making, wholesaling, retailing, and promoting in the 19th century has been made and documented, all based on original primary sources:
. . . . . . .-- The original history is on p.54 .
. . . . . . .-- The SN gun dating chart is attached on p.54 with complete footnotes on "why" and "how"; One cannot begin to write a history until the dates of the guns are understood.
. . . . . . .-- The list of known Reilly guns and extant guns is on p.57 with the footnotes also attached.
. . . . . . .-- The label date chart was on p.49, half of it now disappeared.
There is not much more which can be discovered. Case rested.

. . . . .II. For those who do not believe this history, it’s time to lay out your case. Analyses of holes in the above research are not needed. Rather what is needed for history is evidence which supports the belief, which somehow became established in the late 20th century, that Reilly was only a retailer:
. . . . . . .-- Please post the source(s) of information on the origin of this claim - that "Reilly was only a retailer from c1828 to 1912," or any evidence which backs this up.
. . . . . . .-- Was any attempt made to verify this - or was it just accepted as an "oral legend truth"?
. . . . . . .-- If any research to confirm this assertion was done, please post the 19th century documents which support it.

Based on the responses to the above, gun historians can decide which version of Reilly history has credibility.

(Edit: A week later and no responses so far; There in fact may be no academic references at all to this claim; I certainly can't find anything except for early 21st century message boards, a very few catalog descriptions and a few articles. This whole theory may just be word of mouth rumor started in the 4th quarter of the 20th century!

So could some of the advocates of this claim that Reilly was only a retailer for 90 years in the 19th century at least tell the board who they first heard this from and why they believed it. Thanks for history's sake...

edit: a month later - crickets. Apparently there is nothing to post and this oral legend can be consigned to the scrap heap.)


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Final thoughts:

1) There are a few sources that might still be tapped for additional information on Reilly:
. . . . .—Reilly prices lists and catalogs were advertised for 60 years. At least one is in a UK collection
. . . . .—UK business anthologies might shed more light on the company’s organization.
. . . . .—“Worshipful Company of Gunmakers” in London will have info on Reilly guns being proofed week by week.
. . . . .—Some sort of patent royalty payment records might still turn up.
. . . . .—French government archives will solve the mystery of rue du Faubourg.

But nothing more will be posted unless something definitive is uncovered. (The extant gun list on p.57 will be updated regularly).

2) Finally, the failure of jpgbox.com was a bitter blow. 5 years of meticulous documentation wiped out overnight for the 3rd time. I have the reference footnotes on my computer but they are no longer available to the casual researcher on-line. Dave should consider putting in his own photo hosting software. I won’t be putting up any more historical posts only to see them GWTW.

Gene Williams. April 28, 2022.

Last edited by Argo44; 05/29/22 11:42 PM.

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I said I wouldn't post on this line but I guess I want to run a test. This E.M. Reilly just sold on Guns International for $3,850. After carefully reading the above line, anyone want to have a go at analysis of the gun and label? Was it worth the price? Would the buyer have bought it had he absorbed what was posted here?
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...-lots-of-condition-.cfm?gun_id=101927364

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I will need some help on how to post an image direct from imgur.

Last edited by Argo44; 07/04/22 09:46 PM.

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To post directly on Imgur, click on to the photo you want to post, select large thumbnail from the list on the lower right, hit the "Copy" button next to the picture you want to post, then right click and paste in the body of your message where you want the photo to appear.


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Gene,

It bears 1904 to 1925 Birmingham proof marks and with that serial number is clearly a Riggs-Reilly.

As 13/1 it should measure .719” (+?). As the bores are now .728” it has clearly been honed since proof and is now marginal even though the wall thicknesses are good.

Either the case has been re-labelled or it is from an earlier Reilly gun?

Last edited by Parabola; 05/09/22 04:15 PM.
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Excellent Mr. Parabola. It is indeed a Riggs marketed gun made in Birmingham, SN 134481, probably mid-late 1920's. Serial Number, and half pistol grip are indicators and the engraving looks nothing like a real Reilly. And your fine explanation of the bore and rebore are beyond my ken.

The label and the case are not original to the gun. The label is the 16, New Oxford Street label with 29 rue du Faubourg, Paris address. It has the 1867 Paris exposition gold medals in the left corner and the 1884 London Exposition Gold medal on the right corner. This label probably was used from late 1884 to 1885-86. We have yet to establish when rue du Faubourg opened and closed (or if it even existed).
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

(see paragraph *81, p.91 above)(Again it's a shame the label chart disappeared. I'll find a way to repost it via imgur).

The interesting thing about this label as opposed to the 5 or 6 other examples is that this one has scolloped corners a la classic Reilly.

A+ grade. (My job here is done!!). (and I would not have paid anywhere near that price for the gun - it's a £200-£400 gun in UK).

Here is the original Holt's advertisement last fall: Estimate £300-500
https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.c...++5899C&refno=++166839&saletype=

Last edited by Argo44; 07/04/22 09:42 PM.

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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Gene,

I don’t think this one is on your list yet. It is clearly an Anson and Deeley (note flat action sides) and not a Facile Princeps variation like mine. It has Wesley Richards style top lever work.

Last edited by Parabola; 05/26/22 03:08 PM.
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Thank you sir; it is added to the chart on p.57. 30487 dates to Feb 1889. It must still have an A&D patent use number on it. Here are two others from that time period: Reilly SN 30768 with Patent use # 8245 is the last known Reilly with such a number. It is dated by my chart to Late summer 1889.....A&D patent expired September 1889.

30446 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 277, Oxford street, London. 12 bore, Shotgun SxS. BLE, doll's head W-R type top-lever; 30" Damascus. AD Patent use #7156
30456 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned). 12 ga. Shotgun SxS. Top lever Box lock. AD Patent use # not mentioned
30487 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 277, Oxford street, London. 12 bore, Shotgun SxS. BLE, doll's head W-R type top-lever; 30" Steel.AD Patent use # not mentioned
30768- E.M. Reilly & Co., 16, New Oxford Street, London. 12 ga. Shotgun SxS. BLE. A&D patent use #8245. (A&D Patent expired Sep 1889)

Last edited by Argo44; 05/26/22 07:07 PM.

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Using Imgur following is a recreation and updated version of the Reilly label list for historians:

1. Summer 1828- Aug 1835;
Name: J.C. Reilly?
Description: Gun Maker”?
Address: Holborn Bars aka 12 Middle Row, Holborn.
Name: presumably J.C. Reilly per advertisements. Label unknown – no extant examples

______________________________________________
|. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
|. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
|. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
|. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
|. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
|. . . . . . . . . . . . .NO EXAMPLES. . . . . . . .. . . . . . |
|. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
|. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
|. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
|. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
|____________________________________________|

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

2. Aug 1835- Mar 1847 ;
Name: Joseph Charles Reilly.
Description: Gun Maker
Address: 316 High Holborn.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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3. Mar 1847 – Nov 1847;
Name: Joseph Charles Reilly;
Description: Gun Maker
Address: 502 New Oxford Street, London.
Feature: See “REMOVED FROM HOLBORN” used Apr 1847-Nov 1847 in advertisements

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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4. Circa Dec 1847 – Circa 1856 (possibly August);
Name: Reilly,
Description: Gun Maker
Address: 502, New Oxford Street, London
Features: Sketch of 502 New Oxford Street; Scolloped corners; Ships to the Universe

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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5. Circa 1856 (possibly August) – March 1859;
Name: Reilly,
Description: Gun Maker
Address: 502, New Oxford Street, London
Features: “Fusils a Bascule”; “Improved Breech Loaders”; Medals from 1851 and 1855 World fair expositions in London and Paris; Sketch of 502 New Oxford Street; scolloped corners; Ships to the Globe

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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6. Mar 1859 – Apr 1861
Name: E.M. Reilly & Co.;
Description: Gun Makers
Address: No. 502 New Oxford Street, London
Features: Sketch of 502 New Oxford Street; Medals won in 1851 and 1855; Improved Breech Loaders; scolloped corners.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

7. Aug 1858 – Mar 1859
Name: Reilly’s
Description:
Address: No. 315, Oxford Street, London
. . . . . . .Principle establishment, 502, New Oxford Street
Features: “Armoury House”; Fusils a Bascule; Shooting gallery target motif; retangular shape. NOTE: This is allegedly from a “reproduction label.” However, no original examples are extant, nor are there extant reproduction labels of this sort. It had to have come from an original.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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8. Mar 1859 – Apr 1861;
Name: E.M Reilly & Co.
Description:
Address: No. 315, Oxford Street, London
. . . . . . .Principal establishment at 502 New Oxford St.
Features: “Gun Manufactury”; “Improved double and single breech loaders; 1851 & 1855 Exhibition medals; scolloped corners

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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9. Apr 1861 – Feb 1868 and on to circa Nov 1881
Name: E.M Reilly & Co.;
Description: Gun Manufacturers
Address: 502, New Oxford Street, London
Features: See advertising scroll work at the bottom of the label which did not change until circa 1885; scolloped corners; subtle border outlining.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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10. Feb 1868 – Nov 1872 and on to Nov 1881
Name: E.M Reilly & Co.,
Description: Gun Manufacturers
Address: 502, New Oxford Street, London; branch establishments:
. . . . . . . . .315 Oxford Street; and
. . . . . . . . .2, rue Scribe, Paris.
Features: Medals won at the 1867 Paris Universelle exhibition (Napoleon III profile). Subsequent labels sometimes did not feature branch addresses.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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11. Feb 1868 – 1870
Name: E.M Reilly & Co.,
Description: Breech Loading Gun & Rifle Manufacturers
Address: 315, Oxford Street, London also
. . . . . . . . .2, rue Scribe, Paris
Features: By Special appointment to the emperor Napoleon III. Used in pistols cases only

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Last edited by Argo44; 07/24/22 10:28 PM.

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