August
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
Who's Online Now
3 members (montenegrin, LeFusil, 1 invisible), 103 guests, and 7 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics36,646
Posts518,846
Members14,194
Most Online462
Aug 5th, 2016
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 88 of 95 1 2 86 87 88 89 90 94 95
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,542
Likes: 66
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,542
Likes: 66
========= *59 1866: Reilly and Purdey Kirfuffle TEXT ==========

*59 1866: Reilly and Purdey Kirfuffle

To illustrate the state of Reilly fortunes and confidence at the time, in 1866 there was a widely reported dust-up between Reilly and Purdey. A salesman at Reilly reportedly told a client that essentially Reilly guns were the same as Purdey's but without the extra-charge for a name, implying Reilly made them for Purdey. Purdey was indignant and fired off an emotionally charged letter demanding retraction.

Reilly not only rejected the charge but in an infamous poem, quoted several times the phrase "exactly the same"...thumbing his nose at the gun aristocracy.

A place-beyond all we in London know
To Messrs. E.M. Reilly & Co.
What other houses charge sixty-five pounds
For, and keep you four or five months (which astounds),
In waiting for; one exactly the same
For which only £45 they claim
Having it ready too in thirty days
Or less, for which they merit highest praise
Exactly the same I've already said
The Gun shall be, by my Art-Heroes made,
But only here to give what's rightly due
You may be able thus to strike more true;. . . .

*59a

(This is not a way to win friends, obviously)

So, the question remains. Did Reilly make guns in the white for Purdey? Purdey didn’t exactly deny it. He just begged the question and deflected.

======= *59 1866: Reilly and Purdey Kirfuffle END TEXT ========

Last edited by Argo44; 06/05/22 09:25 AM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,913
Likes: 4
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,913
Likes: 4
I am unaware of any proof that a gun was made in the white by Reilly anD finished by Purdey. The only Purdey guns I can think of that were finished as opposed to built in house were some of their box locks, rifles, etc.

While a nice story, I doubt Reilly made sidelocks for Purdey or if their hammer guns were of equal quality.

And yes I own a very nice Reilly BLNE.

Last edited by old colonel; 04/17/22 09:02 PM.

Michael Dittamo
Topeka, KS
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,954
Likes: 111
Sidelock
**
Online Content
Sidelock
**

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,954
Likes: 111
Well, we can read about and actually put names to faces of people who actually worked at Purdey. Purdey actually has a real, not make believe factory, with actual machines, boring equipment, skilled gunmakers (that can be named by the way), laborers, and even apprentices, with all kinds of historical records documenting who worked there in the past and what part they played in building an actual gun. Completely opposite of what you claim happened at Reilly.
Maybe, just maybe, the folks at Purdey were pissed that their name was even mentioned in the same breath as Reilly because everyone in London knew what the Reilly operation was all about……a professional rebranding organization that claimed they made things that they never did, you know….just like Walmarts great value brand. Walmart doesn’t make the things they put their name on either.
Exactly like EM Reilly!😂. What a bunch of fugazis the Reilly folks were, masquerading as gunmakers. I think you’ve done more damage to the Reilly brand than you’ve helped it. Everyone is so sick of hearing about your speculation on Reilly this Reilly that, most people probably look at a Reilly now and suddenly get the urge to throw it in a wood chipper and be done with it.
I suppose the next big, breaking, Reilly news story will be how they actually made guns for W&C Scott. Reilly did have 300 gunmakers employed so they would’ve been fully capable of doing this right?? Reilly just shipped all those fully stocked, barreled actions in the white up to Birmingham so Scotts could finish them and call em their own. You’re a regular Sherlock Holmes!

Gene, I think you’ve finally lost it!!!!😂
Hope you have a nice Easter.

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,913
Likes: 4
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,913
Likes: 4
I believe Reilly made guns, though not necessarily every gun they stamped with their name. Great makers sold guns brought in the white and finished in house. Holland, Purdey, even Boss as BLE by John Robertson did.

I understand this thread is as close to interminable as a thread can get, however I accept and respect the passion for Reilly Argo has as I accept that which we all share here for doubleguns. Long before I got a Boss or Purdey I got a very nice Reilly that I still like and use as my Rainy Day gun

I also think Argo is just stirring things up with the Purdey remark. I bite on it, because I can’t see Purdey buying guns from them at that point.


Michael Dittamo
Topeka, KS
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,542
Likes: 66
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,542
Likes: 66
Mes Amis...I am happy that finally someone has responded to this history. It is the product of years of painstaking research. The previous chapters asked for comments. None were forthcoming. Now re the above comments:

--There is not one photo of the Purdey Hqs at 314 1/2 Oxford Street in existence (1826-1881). The closest is the photo analysis of Oxford Street that I sent to Purdey. If you have one, Purdey will pay you for it.

-- There is not one commentary I have been able to find about or from Purdey technicians/workers from this time Frame 1860's. If you all have something, please post it. It will be a revelation.

-- There are no records of patent payments to Purdey for patent 1104 or others. Actually there may be but they are literally locked up and cannot be accessed.

-- This part of the history is what is available from that century, not late 20th century mythology. The speculation was mine but the taunting by Reilly was real. (and those Purdey Bastin actions beg the question)...i.e. did Purdey really in the 1860's make every piece of every gun in-house? Reilly claimed to do so in print.

Now you guys please start posting your objections to this history. Insults are not intellect. Please back up your rebuttals by 19th century research, not 20th century conjecture.

This history was written 4 years ago and published in very attenuated form 3 years ago. I was challenged on the sources. It is being reposted chapter by chapter with the footnotes (which with the demise of jbpbox.com have largely disappeared).

So have your say on each chapter before it goes to print. I pay attention to you all when it's something more than just denigration. (Reilly went through all that when he first made breech loaders and tried to get a UK royal warrant). That's what peer-review and this board is all about.

But you need to back up your counter-claims with research as I've done mine. And Mike, I'm writing a book. It will terminate at some point in print. this board is what inspired it.

Last edited by Argo44; 04/18/22 03:18 AM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,913
Likes: 4
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,913
Likes: 4
Touché Argo.

I mean no disrespect, and find your method to prove Reilly a gunmaker, which I believe they were, inventive. I interpret it to be prove Purdey was a gunmaker at all times in its history; with the lack of detailed picture evidence proving your void.

Unfortunately the amount of company documents from Purdey exist where Reilly’s like many other makers are lost to us.

The incident between Reilly and Purdey is described on page 67 of Donald Dallas Purdey book with the Purdey point of view. Unfortunately we do not have detailed Reilly point of view. This is of course the long challenge with Reilly, because the company long ago went out of business and unlike Purdey the records are incomplete.

I believe Reilly was an actual gunmaker, no argument, that said like other makers, I.e. Holland, he seems to have brought from the trade. With the exception of a few odd guns, mostly BLE’s and a round action, I do not believe it is worth the bother to defend Purdey as a maker as you have Reilly.

Better documentation for Purdey, I wish the detailed ledgers were still present for Reilly as I believe you would have an easier time getting your position accepted.


Having recently purchased a pair of Trulock and Harris guns for which all records have been lost I know the pain of dead ends, not to mention my lack of data on my Reilly BLNE.

I like my Reilly BLNE. I like your love of Reilly guns

I look forward to your book and will buy it.

Last edited by old colonel; 04/17/22 09:06 PM. Reason: Grammar

Michael Dittamo
Topeka, KS
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,596
Likes: 52
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,596
Likes: 52
II want to believe the Reilly story Argo presents. I have a nice Reilly which was my first good English double. However, my position is that Reilly was a merchant, not a maker. I can't prove my position but I do not believe Argo has proven his either. I'll buy his book though...Geo

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,542
Likes: 66
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,542
Likes: 66
Thanks for your comments. They are needed because breaking a long-held stereotype/opinion is difficult. Before moving on with the history, here are a few rhetorical questions I asked of mc several pages ago which might help to start moving the needle.

-- Reilly built pin-fires. Are you all ok with that statement? p.76-77
. . . . .-- Was Reilly one of the first to build pin-fires in UK along with Lang and Blanche?
. . . . .-- Was there anybody else in all of UK who could have built those four early Reilly pin-fires? If so, who?

-- Do you accept the Reilly serial number dating chart? (To discuss the above pinfires you have to date them first)

-- Do you think he exhibited at 1851 Crystal Palace and 1855 Paris Universelle World's Fairs? If so, was he showing others' work and claiming it was his?

-- Do you believe he provided 4 center-break pinfire guns to "The Field" for the two trials in 1858 and 1859?
. . . . .-- If so do you think "The Field" would have let him submit other gunmakers' guns for the trials?
. . . . .-- Do you think the other gunmakers at the test would have allowed this?
. . . . .-- If you believe he submitted others' guns for the test, whose were they?

Gene Williams
Nouakchott

Last edited by Argo44; 04/18/22 03:44 AM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 311
Likes: 43
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 311
Likes: 43
-- Do you believe he provided 4 center-break pinfire guns to "The Field" for the two trials in 1858 and 1859?
. . . . .-- If so do you think "The Field" would have let him submit other gunmakers' guns for the trials?
. . . . .-- Do you think the other gunmakers at the test would have allowed this?
. . . . .-- If you believe he submitted others' guns for the test, whose were they?

Gene Williams
Nouakchott[/quote]

Gene,

I hope that it is uncontroversial and accepted that although Holland and Holland always styled themselves “Gunmakers” that almost everything they , and H. Holland before them, sold before they opened their factory in the 1890’s was made for them in the trade. The shotguns mostly by W.C. Scott.

Purdey was a gunmaker from the get go, but no doubt bought in barrels, locks and furniture from specialist out workers.

Reilly, by having his name put on a gun, was effectively standing by its quality.

No one would have objected, because whether or not he had any part in the making of the gun he was doing much the same as everyone else in the trade.

The answer to your first 3 questions is “Yes”.

In the sad absence of Reilly’s records we shall never know the answer to your last question unless an individual gun, when stripped down, reveals an action maker’s mark and even then was it bought in as a complete gun or a parts set?

Easter Greetings,

Parabola

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,954
Likes: 111
Sidelock
**
Online Content
Sidelock
**

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,954
Likes: 111
Here’s a few questions you should be asking…….let’s talk about the 1870’s through the early 1900’s.

1. Did Reilly build boxlocks? No.
2. Did Reilly build sidelock breach loading shotguns? No.
3. Did Reilly have a “factory”, not a building, but an actual factory that employed 300 gunmakers? No.
4. Did Reilly have an identifiable “house style”? No.
5. Did Reilly have any important patents to his name besides the exploding bullet of the 1860’s? NO.
6. Can anyone name anyone that actually was noted to build guns at Reilly? No.
7. Did Reilly make Greener FP actions in house? No.
8. Did Reilly make SMLE rifles in house? No.
9. Did Reilly make Scott patent Crystal indicator guns in house? No.
10. Did Reilly make modern double rifles in house? No.
11. Does anyone recall anybody that worked at Reilly’s and then went out and hung their own shingle to build guns? No.
12. Did Reilly contribute anything of note to the gunmaking world during these years? No.
13. Why are there absolutely zero pictures of the Reilly factory floor showing his 300 gunmakers busily turning out beautiful boxlocks, sidelocks, hammer guns, etc?
14. Why is there absolutely zero recollection from anyone else active in the trade during those years as to knowing anyone who actually built guns for Reilly? No names of Stockers, actioners, barrel makers, finishers, etc?


And the questions like this go on and on and on…….

I’ll concede that the EM Reilly store was probably a fantastic place to go shopping and do some browsing. Probably chocked full of all kinds of sporting wonders, anything and everything a gentleman sporting man would ever want all under one roof. I wish there were at least some pictures of the inside of the store. I’d be interested just to see how it was laid out.

I wonder how Genes friends at the Internet Gun Club feel about all of this? Seemed he got peer reviewed over there and it didn’t go very well. I wonder how come.

Page 88 of 95 1 2 86 87 88 89 90 94 95

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2022 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.068s Queries: 35 (0.045s) Memory: 0.8723 MB (Peak: 1.8992 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2022-08-14 22:10:17 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS