January
S M T W T F S
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30 31
Who's Online Now
10 members (graybeardtmm3, journeymen, MattH, LeFusil, canvasback, 1 invisible), 78 guests, and 6 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics36,545
Posts513,199
Members14,124
Most Online462
Aug 5th, 2016
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 68 of 69 1 2 66 67 68 69
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,870
Likes: 64
Sidelock
**
Online Content
Sidelock
**

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,870
Likes: 64
I don’t believe that your assertions, presumptions and theories regarding Reilly’s building of modern, breech loading, golden age weapons is at all convincing, valid or acceptable.
It’s almost offensive to unbiased persons following this thread that you continue to presume with such scant, inconclusive, non empirical evidence that your extremely biased interpretation of your own research as facts and that the case is closed. It’s more than obvious that that’s not the case, you have not at all provided that smoking gun. It’s all conjecture and theory.

If you seriously believe that Reilly produced that many variations of boxlocks, sidelocks, swords, rifles, pistols, walking canes, gun cases, etc entirely in their “factory” in London then you seriously have no idea of the magnitude of that manufacturing operation would be. They would’ve needed a factory the size of W&C Scott’s or bigger. Like I said earlier, their factory would’ve had to have more skilled workers than any factory in London and even most in the midlands. We all know, that wasn’t the case.



“ There is nothing inherently difficult about producing a range of weapons if you have the tools and measurements on hand.”

This has to be the most ridiculous statement you’ve ever made. How absolutely ignorant!!! That statement really takes any credibility you might have had away.
You have ZERO clue regarding the manufacture of a weapon of this era.
Hand your 100% Scott built (Scott & Baker patent action) Reilly to a modern machinist and have him build you another one….I’m sure he’ll be able to make you one after he takes a few measurements and sets up his CNC. Ya Right. Call Galazans and ask them to make you a Scott triplex or a Westley C-bolt Gun. I’m sure they’ll tell you how simple it is to manufacture. They can change their machines back over to make their own guns when they get done fulfilling your order.
You see how ridiculous it sounds, Gene? Everyone else does.

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,817
Likes: 60
mc Online Content
Sidelock
**
Online Content
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,817
Likes: 60
I hate to beat a dead horse but I have two greener a&d action shotguns made 1878 and 1886 as I said both marked ww greener but under the bottom plate is j brazier why didn't greener just take some measurements and build the guns?why didn't greener expand production hire people and build the guns i know two guns do not make conclusive proof but it dose show it was easier to buy a different actions gun then build it mabey greener was to busy and bought them to fill a need

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,218
Likes: 36
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,218
Likes: 36
Sigh, more disinformation. It would help if what I wrote would just be read.

I am talking about Serial Numbered guns above.
-- Reilly never claimed to make pistols after 1837.
-- He engraved and sold a lot of rifles and shotguns but unless they are serial numbered he did not make them. For instance he put his name on 6000 Reilly-Comblain's...not one was serial numbered.
-- There is a Reilly "sword bayonet" for a Jacob's rifle...but it has another maker's name on it as well. I don't think he made them.
-- There are no other makers' names, extraneous manufacturing marks, etc. on Reilly SN'd guns from the 1860's - with the exception of one pin-fire with S.Breedon (Birmingham center-break lock maker after 1861) on the action and I've discussed that gun. There is one with a Joseph Brazier action - he advertised this option for an additional £5.

So Dustin, in your theory you'll have to account for why this is and what is the difference between serial numbered and non-serial numbered guns. You need to try reading what's on paper and address that not something you've created out of whole cloth.

As for post 1880 when Reilly expanded production to over 1000 a year and began seriously marketing boxlocks...I have that caveated. I have flat out said that it's quite likely he began using actions from Birmingham for his boxlocks and if so for the Scott triplex actions as well like my Reilly 16 bore. But I also said, there are no extraneous marks, initials, names on these guns that I've seen or been told about or have found and Scott it seems always found a way to put a mark on his guns.

And I've asked a question that has not been answered. How can you guarantee that a boxlock action was made in Birmingham? Oh, "everybody says it?" Or, "it will have workers' initials on it?" So, If a boxlock does not have workers' initials etc on it, was it made elsewhere? What are the definitive markers? If a boxlock action were made in London how would you know? This is the type of thing I'm interested in. John Cambell wrote a recent well researched book on boxlocks which I've ordered.

I pay attention to what Dustin says. But here's a request:
-- Please try and keep the discourse civil - personal insults do not advance a case and actually are pretty childish.
-- Read what I've written in the history not what you think has been written, note the sentences you have a problem with and I'll let you know why I wrote it that way.
-- And please don't set up straw men - it just makes the dialog courser.

Last edited by Argo44; 11/25/21 04:52 AM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,274
Likes: 43
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,274
Likes: 43
Originally Posted by lonesome roads
Originally Posted by HomelessjOe
Originally Posted by LeFusil
You should be proud, Gene. You’ve done one heck of a job trying to date and make sense of your beloved Reilly’s serial numbers and trade labels. You should absolutely be proud of that work. Kudos to you for that, seriously.

You have not provided one bit of empirical evidence that proves that Reilly made any guns, shotguns, pistols, etc during what we refer to as “The Golden Age” of British gunmaking. Sorry. It just hasn’t happened for you. .

The hOax lives on.

Nah. More like a Lost Cause. An insane attempt to re-write history.
______________________________________
What a waste. All that time spent. Could’ve been playing golf.

Believing a lie has drove more than one man insane.....

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,218
Likes: 36
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,218
Likes: 36
===============================================================
How to conduct an intellectual inquiry - where I stand


I want to return to the above because the “debate” over Reilly has gone off track and I have personally taken a good bit of guff. Here is an analysis of the argumentation:

-- A group of gun connoisseurs has stated that “historically” Reilly was known only as a retailer. Anyone challenging this view must “prove” that Reilly was more than this and this proof must be definitive.
. . . . . . .This is quite simply anti-intellectual to its core. It is “I am right and you are wrong until you prove you are not wrong” dogma. There is not one truly intellectual investigation of anything that can start off with the conclusion as a given.

-- The second group began this line with a plain statement of facts: “J.C. Reilly, a jeweler by trade, began selling guns at his shop at High Holborn sometime between 1826 and 1828." This type of observation is similar to the start of any philosophical or intellectual endeavor, noticing a fact and wondering "why?" "how?" "what?" Then the investigation, based on the evidence, illuminated over the course of 5 years of research:
. . . – what type of guns he sold
. . . – how many he sold
. . . – what was his business model
. . . – what other lines of revenue did the company pursue, etc.
. . . – the fact that he made guns as well as sold retail, wholesale, including what types, etc.
. . . – It identified his market and his customers
. . . - It dated the serial numbered guns, and the labels….etc.

. . . - ALL the source materials were original from the 19th century - early 20th century.....none were from secondary sources or "oral legend."
. . . - The source materials and research were published on this line every step of the way.


. . . . . . . .This intellectual exercise, the research into Reilly, did exactly what such an investigation was supposed to do and it was conducted in exactly the way it should have been. It started with a simple goal - to date the Reilly guns. It then followed the evidence and clues which were uncovered. And the history was finally written by putting these together in the most logical way possible. It was refined as additional information was found and per appropriate comments from peer review.

I cannot accept the proposition that “historically” Reilly was only a “retailer,” when there is absolutely nothing "historical" about that assertion. Nor should gun scholars and students of guns.

To sum up: This history is the most complete one on Reilly that is available. It’s conclusions are based on the best possible original-source, historical evidence and analysis. There are places where some facts are still unclear and awaiting additional information. But, that is the fundamental truth about this research and it is the way any intellectual exercise should be conducted.

Last edited by Argo44; 11/30/21 04:27 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
1 member likes this: ivanhoe
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,218
Likes: 36
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,218
Likes: 36
=======================================================
E.M. Reilly "Carpathe Rifle"


I ran across this Christies 1997 ad for a Reilly "Carpathe Rifle" - SN 32845 would date to 1893 (no pictures):
https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-297695
A RARE 7 X 57(R) MM SINGLE-SHOT SIDELOCK NON-EJECTOR CARPATHE-RIFLE BY E.M. REILLY, NO. 32845
Carved serpentine detonating, best foliate-scroll engraving, bright and reblued finish, well-figured stock with pistolgrip, sling-eye, horn-capped forend, the barrel (converted to 7x57) with matt top and open-sights
Weight: 7lb. 3½oz., 14½in. stock, 25½in. barrel, nitro proof

What is a Carpathe Rifle? It looks like just a single barrel, centerbreak, center-fire rifle. There is no info on the internet. There is one ad for a Holland & Holland "Carpathe Rifle" pictured below dating to 1895:
https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-1296806

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 11/25/21 02:38 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 196
Likes: 21
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 196
Likes: 21
Gene,

The Carpatinian mountains, then in the heart of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire were a favourite stalking ground for Imperial and noble hunters who often favoured light single shot stalking rifles for hunting that might involve a lot of uphill climbing.

If in break open configuration they were and are known as kipplauf.

I am not sure if they were known at the time as Carpathian rifles, or whether that is a term coined by modern auctioneers.

I suspect that the Reilly would have started life as either a .303 or possibly a .256 Mannlicher (6.5 x53R) before being relined or bored out to 7x57R.

The Holland and Holland you show is similar to one in .303 now in The Guards Museum, that was fitted with a scope by Holland’s and given to the Irish Guards. Their RSM used it to deadly effect on the Western Front in 1915.

Last edited by Parabola; 11/25/21 04:24 PM.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 9,731
Likes: 35
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 9,731
Likes: 35
Maybe a question for Jani, but it appears that the term >>Carpathe<< is a London term for single shot stalker under a Anson & Deeley Body Action, sidelock, whatever platform.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 9,731
Likes: 35
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 9,731
Likes: 35
Fanzoj is turning them out, but, like as mentioned above, they are the „Kipplauf“ platform:

https://fanzoj.com/collection/single-shot-rifles/

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,218
Likes: 36
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,218
Likes: 36
Thanks. Parabola's identification seems spot on. I wondered if this were a Christies specific term. But still curious about what this is: "Carved serpentine detonating," Both ads have the same thing. What is a "detonating"


Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Page 68 of 69 1 2 66 67 68 69

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2021 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.052s Queries: 36 (0.031s) Memory: 0.8695 MB (Peak: 1.8992 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2022-01-18 17:20:56 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS