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Argo44 Offline OP
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=========================================================================
35614 - built by G&S HOLLOWAY in 1911 - changing the chronology and history 1907-1912


Mark Crudgington just worked on a Reilly 12 bore, SN 35614, with E.M. Reilly, 295 Oxford Street, London on the rib. Mark notes that it was built by G&S Holloway per a number near the lump H8113. The 8*** serial number shows it was built by Holloway in 1911. It has post 1904 London Proof marks and was Holloway's "model 1750" that sold retail for £17 -5-0. That is bad engraving for a Reilly and one must assume the barrels are Birmingham proofed. This is not your typical Reilly.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

This will influence the dating chart and the history in two ways:

1) This is only the second serial numbered Reilly found so far with marks on it indicating it was made by another firm and finished by Reilly. The first is 10614 (1858) with S.Breeden's name on the action and Brum proofs. I've speculated that after the closure of 277 Oxford Street in February 1903 there is no way Reilly could have kept his gunsmiths at work with the amount of guns he was building per year. He must have been selling guns built in the white by others.

2) Reilly sold 50 more guns in 1911 and 1912 leading up to bankruptcy than previously reckoned. Per this advertisement Reilly was selling off his stock of guns at a 40% discount in September 1911, perhaps getting ready for bankruptcy.

16 Sep 1911, The Field
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Thanks a bunch for the help Mark

Last edited by Argo44; 10/14/21 07:38 PM.

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On Guntrader UK there is currently an Edwinson Green hammer 12 bore SN H9975.

That is not a Green SN and his records show he had guns made by Holloway. Presumably H9975 is another Holloway number.

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============================================================
Reilly had a small shooting gallery at 316 High Holborn, 1835-1847


Per this advertisement, Reilly had a small shooting gallery at 316 High Holborn.

. . . . .14Apr1843 Illustrated London News
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

This is confirmed by this Blissett advertisement. Blissett occupied 316 High Holborn when Reilly moved to 502 New Oxford street at the end of March 1847

. . . . .13Apr1847 London Daily News
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Here is where 316 High Holborn was located.
(google earth)
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Information has been added to the history


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============================================================
-- Reilly manufactures 400 Green Brothers Patent rifles 1864 – 1868;
-- First Reilly use of assembly line interchangeable parts = "American System"?
-- Reilly builds rifles in the white for Wilkinson?
Modification of the Reilly History


There are three previous posts above (p. 12, 28, and above) which discuss Reilly’s manufacturing of Green Brothers (C.E. and J) breech loading single barrel rifles from spring 1864 to 1868. More rifles have come to light and this post will update the history so will be somewhat redundant:

C.E. and J. Green were gunmakers in London and in the 1850’s were regarded as one of the most innovative of breech-loading rifle firms. For several years they were in partnership with Prince and helped make and market the Prince breech loader. Per several posts above, Reilly may have had a financial stake in Green and Prince since neither Green nor Reilly signed the famous “The Field” open letter urging Arsenal to reopen the Rifle competition in favor of the Prince.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Green Bros. partnership with Prince came to an end in summer 1859. In January 1861 the Green Bros. took out a patent on a new breech-loader featuring a breech which could be attached to the 1853 Enfield rifle-musket. Nothing much seemed to come of the patent.

However, in early 1864 the Prussians crushed the Danes and the Dreyse Needle Gun got a lot of the credit. Suddenly every European army could see the handwriting on the wall and a frantic search began in UK to find an interim breech-loader which would do until a purpose built one could be adopted. Arsenal announced a competition.

In March 1864 Reilly announced in the UK Press that he now owned manufacturing rights to the Green Bros rifle and this was followed up by several press releases and something of a publicity campaign to show the gun and demonstrate its capabilities (see below advertisements).

In the end the competition was won by American Snider (who was living in penury in UK and who died before he could earn a farthing from his invention) and the Snider-Enfield was formally adopted in September 1866. The Green Bros rifle used a paper water-proof cartridge with a separate percussion cap while the Snider could use a metallic cartridge with primer included. Yet the Green Bros rifle continued to be popular with the marksmen crowd for another couple of years. It’s run terminated before the end of the 1860’s because it couldn’t be adapted to the all metallic cartridge.

There are so far 6 known surviving Reilly Green Brothers rifles out of an estimated some 350 made from 1864 to 1868. There are two possible lessons from the Pat use#- SN correllation sequence:

. . . . .-- Reilly SN 13326 - 13333 corresponds to Green Bros Pat use #16 -# 23, meaning that Reilly manufactured a whole block of guns at the same time in April-May 1864 all at 502, New Oxford Street. How many of these were made in this “block" is unknown but Reilly did gamble on making as many as 100 speculation guns at a time, particularly those with a new technology.

. . . . .— Reilly SN 14763 - 15047 corresponds to Green Bros Pat use #177 – #325 during a period from about Sep 1867 to March 1868. Reilly serial number a total of 284 guns of all types during this period. 148 of these guns, 50% of the total Reilly production, were Green Bros rifles made at both workshops, 502 New Oxford and 277 Oxford Streets. This again indicates that he made the guns as a “batch” or “lot” pretty much all at the same time.

Speculate that this making of "lots" or "batches" was perhaps an Reilly early attempt at an assembly-line interchangable-parts production called the “American System” in UK and which was being popularized in London at the time by the Enfield Armoury. This mass-production system did not reach Birmingham until the 1870’s.

1. 12002 - use #1: E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned). .577 cal. Rifle; single barrel, breech loader, hammer gun, Green Bros patent; Pat use #1, Reilly manufacture (originally type 3 Enfield). (1861). 9.1 lbs, 39” barrel
-- This is #1 (no photo). The Serial number from 1861 is too early for the patent, which wasn’t granted until Jan 1862. This obviously was a previously made Enfield rifle-musket selected by Reilly to be converted, possibly as an experiment. It worked. The barrel is a full length 39." Later guns were reduced to 24” barrels accounting for the weight difference.
https://collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-9371.html

2. 13326 - use #16: E.M. Reilly & Co., 502, New Oxford Street, London; .577 cal. Rifle; single barrel, breech loader, hammer gun, Green Bros patent; Pat use #16, Reilly manufacture. (no photo). 7.4 Lbs. 24.5” barrel.
https://collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-9851.html

3. 13333- use #23: E.M. Reilly & Co., 502, New Oxford Street, London; .577 cal. Rifle; single barrel, breech loader, hammer gun, Green Bros patent; Pat use #23, Reilly manufacture.
http://www.invaluable.co.uk/auction-lot/e.m.-reilly-co,-london-a-rare-.577-percussion-c-671-c-645dde1fff
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

4. 13884 – use #159: E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London; .577 cal. Rifle; single barrel, breech loader, hammer gun, Green Bros patent; Pat use #159, Reilly manufacture. 24” barrel.
https://www.ima-usa.com/products/or...ech-loading-carbine-by-e-m-reilly-c-1864
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

5. 14763 - use #177: E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London; .577 cal. Single barrel breech-loader rifle. Green Bros Patent – Pat use #177, Reilly manufacture.
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21639/lot/426/
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

6. 15047 - use #325: E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London; .577 Rifle. Single barrel, breech-loader rifle. Green Bros Patent - Pat use #325, Reilly manufacture. 24” barrel.
https://caseantiques.com/item/lot-698-british-e-m-reilly-co-percussion-carbine-577-caliber/
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Note. Royal Armouries Museum has a Liège produced copy of the Green Brothers patent rifle. Liège would copy anything but the fact they copied a rifle with a limited market (Reilly appears to have sold less than 400 of them based on Pat Use numbers) is interesting.
https://collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-9719.html

There is this oddity. Reilly was the sole manufacturer of Green Bros. Breech Loaders. Yet there is this Green Bros. rifle with Wilkinson's name on it. The conclusion is that Reilly likely made it for Wilkinson.
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-...577-percussion-capping--534-c-c15403187c
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]


======== Green brothers continued see below ==============

Last edited by Argo44; 09/12/21 01:57 AM.

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======== Green brothers continued from above ==============

Here are a few of the articles in the English press about the Green Bros invention and Reilly's manufacture of the gun which began in early 1864:

(1). Volunteer Services Gazette, of 12 March 1864:

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

(2). 04 April 1864, London Daily News:

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

(3). 28 Jul 1864, Morning Post - a report on the beginning of breech loading trials...and first mention of the Snider, which wound up beating out the Green Bros and Reilly for the contract as UK's interim breech loader:

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

(4). Here examples the hundreds of Reilly ads run during 1864...he was not shy in promoting this gun...millions of pounds in government contracts were at stake. And you see again the consistent promotion of his testing facility at 315 Oxford Street.

. . . . .London Daily News, 24 April 1864
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

. . . . .1865 advertisements:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 09/12/21 01:06 AM.

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Just noticed a Reilly ,22 rim fire pistol listed in the December 1977 Weller & Dufty catalogue.

.22 RF single shot target pistol, serial No 5375, by Reilly, New Oxford street London. With octagonal barrel, trigger guard with spur, one piece checkered bag shaped walnut grips. Frame engraved with border lines and foliate scrolls. Barrel 7 3/4 inch.

Regard

AlanD

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Thanks Alan. There are a lot of Reilly engraved and retailed pistols - percussion duelers, pepper pots, howdahs, pocket muzzle loaders, rotating barrels, single shot target pistols, revolvers - Trantor, Adams, Tower, Walker bulldog, S&W, Colt, Webley..... But Reilly didn't serial number any pistol after 1837 that I can find. He may have assembled low-cost revolvers from Liège 1860-1880's...a lot of London gun makers were in the "import-the-parts-from-Belgium-and-build-them-up" game. But he didn't serial number assembled guns either. See p. 26 for a pretty complete chapter on Reilly pistols.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 09/12/21 01:58 AM.

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Argo44,
Tranter revolvers (100s) supplied to Rigby all had serial numbers.

I have a Tranter/Powell .230 rimfire revolver No.10042 (1867).

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Steve, all the revolvers have their makers' serial numbers to my knowledge and can probably be dated by them. It's just that they cannot be used to date a Reilly gun - except where they have a case with a label. The label might then be associated with a time period thanks to the serial number revolver.

Here is an example...I thought this Reilly outlier pistol-only, 315 Oxford Street label was late 1870's. I now believe it was late 1860's, early 1870's but will research the revolver more to make sure.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

A clearer look at this label.
--"'Breech Loading Gun and Rifle Manufacturers"
-- 315 Oxford Street. Principle establishment 502 New Oxford Street and 2, rue Scribe, Paris. (post Feb 1868 - pre November 1881
-- gun maker to Napoleon III (prior to the fall of Napoleon III at the battle of Sedan, 3 Sep 1870? Actually Reilly continued to use that recommendation in his labels and Empress Eugenie bought two Reilly's in the early 1870's after exile to England).
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 09/12/21 06:56 PM.

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I mention these two guns not because they are good buys but because of historical interest:

=====================================================
-- 35398 - New 1st gun at 295 Oxford Street


1) 35398 is now the earliest Reilly with 295 Oxford Street on the rib. I've redone the last few years of the Chronology twice in the last two months, first to account for a possible 14 month break between the closure of 277 Oxford Street February 1903 and opening of 295 Oxford Street May 1904. 35398 barely makes it into the new chronology for 1904...but it's there!! And second because of the 1911 gun made by Holloway....which forced a bulge of 65 guns having to be sold in 1911 as he reduced inventory in preparation for bankruptcy..reducing the numbers sold in the previous 5 years.
https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.c...++5551+&refno=++162330&saletype=
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

=====================================================
-- 134481 - Riggs gun with original Reilly case with an interesting rue du Faubourg label.


2). 134481. This is a Riggs gun. Holts simply will not accept my chronology and as a result is effectively engaging in malpractice by misadvertising those guns. It is embarrassing for Holts...their identifications are all over the place.

But this is interesting - I was hoping to finally see a Riggs case/trade label. Instead, the gun is housed in an original Reilly case with a label for 16, New Oxford Street apparently with 29 rue du Faubourg, Saint Honoré, Paris address on the right scroll work. The label itself is not common (6 are known) - it had to date from a very narrow time period early 1885 - early-mid 1886. (1884 London Exposition Medals indicate early 1885 as a back marker).
https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.c...++5899C&refno=++166839&saletype=
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Here is a better example from SN 26680 - Scollops on the above label may have been added:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

I have been doing a good bit of reassessing on the time period that 29 rue du Faubourg, Saint Honoré, Paris was open and was going to put an academic analysis sort of post up on current thinking (as the book is readied for publication). Will post this later.

Last edited by Argo44; 09/22/21 10:27 PM.

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