doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Unusual Syracuse

Daryl
All the SAC guns I've seen with original trigger guard/trigger plate finishes appear to have been (niter) blued; I've not seen an example with these parts color hardened, although those finish features could have been changed as the end of production neared?

OK, is the subject gun of this posting a very late gun ? It's trigger plate is color case hardened, or could it be redone ? I thought one photograph "might" show the trigger plate shrunk away from the receiver a bit. Could just be the light or ?

Daryl, there is not a speck of lift in the action plate, nor any gaps in any of the metal to metal fit.
There is a darkness of the coloring that could give that impression on the bottom side.
If you use your zoom on your computer, you can also get a good look at the metal to wood fit.
I do have a couple of other late 'A' and above grades that also have a case colored trigger plate. None of which are as nice.
If you look at the pictures of the recent A1S 16 that was talked about on another thread, it also has a case colored trigger plate.
I think that it was a late change on the A and above guns, but I could not tell you when that exactly happened.
As Tom knows, there are quite a few 'anomalies' when it comes to Syracuse features in relation to serial numbers.
I would guess somewhere around or above #30k.
This is not the gun that was for sale in Michigan, that gun should surely have a blued trigger plate.
But heck .... I could be wrong.

And I forgot to add... I think that one of my earlier 'A's may have a Damascus lower rib. Mid #5k range.
I'm ordering a camera stand and will continue to search for the correct combination of light sources at that point.
Maybe a new camera if that doesn't work out.
Thanks for the tips.

"OK, is the subject gun of this posting a very late gun ? It's trigger plate is color case hardened, or could it be redone ? I thought one photograph "might" show the trigger plate shrunk away from the receiver a bit. Could just be the light or?"

Daryl (and all):
My memory has failed me again, so I stand corrected and apologize to all. I actually have pix of two late high-conditioned SAC guns (B Grade #36205 and un-graded #37398) that both show color cased trigger plates. The Grade B gun appears to have a niter blued trigger guard; and the un-graded gun appears to also have a color cased trigger guard. I believe the ungraded gun (the most unusual SAC gun I've ever seen by the way) was certainly made near the bitter end of production; so it does appear that SAC elected to change their trigger plate and trigger guard treatment at some point near the end of production, and that thought had never occurred to me prior to this discussion.

PS: I've asked, and if Ken61 will agree to do so on my behalf, I'll post pix of these two referenced SAC guns

That late ungraded gun does have a colored trigger plate, but not trigger guard.
Once again, lighting probably.
How about that A1S at Ironmen?

http://www.ironmenarms.com/listings.php?id=798

Was it you that bought that gun R.R.? If so, you got a really neat SAC; and you should post some pix, as it will make a great topic of discussion (I have those from the listing; but will never be smart enough to post them here).
Only saw pix of the A1S after passing on a chance to purchase the gun because the Maryland owner did not send pix promised me before taking a deposit on the piece the next day; the gun would have been mine otherwise. Certainly not my first trip down the primrose path, I just felt I couldn't risk $1200 based on the verbal description given to me describing the problem with the barrel lug (which appears to have been exaggerated now that I've finally seen a photo). But again, and based on my conversation with the seller, I had no reason to believe the pix committed would not be forthcoming; seems everyone has 20/20 hindsight, and I do regret losing the opportunity as this example was the best A1S I've seen to date.

Yes Tom, I own that gun.
Perhaps I'll get a chance to share some pictures.
I've said it before, but I really do appreciate the time and effort that you have put into your articles.
Thanks.

Glad to know you now own that piece R.R. I tried my best to become its caretaker, but it seemed that whoever I was bidding against at the time (didn't know it was you) had scary deep pockets; so I finally stepped aside and accepted defeat. At any rate, I found that gun perhaps the most unusual SAC gun I've ever seen; and it appears (in the pix anyway) to have hardly been used at all. I called the seller, who sent a few additional pix of the gun for study, to see what he knew of the history of this piece; and learned that he knew nothing about the gun other than that it came in from a local individual (seems his shop was close by Syracuse). In studying the pix posted by the seller, and those additional sent to me later; I believe the gun to have been an employee gun that is composed of parts representing different grades. The butt stock appears to be of A grade quality, but lacks the gold name shield feature common to all late A Grade SAC stocks; so it could be either an A Grade stock without the gold shield, or a late Grade 3 stock (which had checkered cheek panels and no gold shield). The frame was certainly intended to be high grade, as it has the filed points across the top of the breech balls common to all SAC guns of B and higher quality; and at first glance appears to be late Grade B quality. But on close inspection, the engraving pattern is different from the late B Grade style; the single dogs on either side of the frame are larger than standard "B", and there is less scroll coverage on frame sides and on the trigger plate. Its trigger guard has more engraving than an A Grade to include a quail scene; but it has a "flat" surface profile, whereas Grade B and up SAC guns have their guard bows filed to exhibit a slight center "ridge". The two quail in the oval are done in the same style as the two quail on the frame side of an A1S; and I've also seen a 16 gauge A Grade with that same game scene on the guard bow (only A I've ever seen with game scenes). All high SAC guns Grade A and up produced after SAC introduced auto-ejector in 1896 came standard with ejectors; and after 1901, were standard with the ejector On/Off device; but this example is a manual extractor gun. Its fluid steel barrels appear to be the Triplett Steel quality common to the SAC Grade OO and hammer gun; but are not marked "Triplett Steel" as per guns of that grade, although I think I recall them being stamped OO on the barrel flats? But regardless, whoever made up this gun had no intention of fooling anyone as the inscription "Plain Steel Barrels" is boldly engraved atop the right barrel tube. The extractor fore iron seems to have a bit more engraving than an A Grade, but lacks the sculpting seen on the Grade B and higher grades. The forend wood is the same quality as found on a Grade OO, O, or 2 SAC gun, but I can't be sure from the pix I have if forend checkered panels are the same coarseness as those panels on the butt stock? On Grade B and higher SAC guns, forend checkered panels featured greater coverage and a mid-border so that the forend exhibited a defined left and right "side" panel. All in all this example is a most unusual and unique "One-Off" Syracuse that appears to have survived in superb condition; and for whatever my opinion may be worth, you are most fortunate to own such a piece.
I said earlier I thought this might be an employee gun, so I'll include my thoughts in that regard. In my humble opinion, I believe only an employee would have assembled a gun using an accumulation of differing grade components. This could have been because that individual had limited funds and purchased what he could afford within the limitation of his personal tastes to include engraving. But given that this is an extremely late production gun, this example might have represented goods in trade for money owed him by the company. I offer that speculation because I have seen an example of such a gun that remains within the original family of an original SAC employee. This very late example is also ungraded and has the following features: frame engraved very simply in a pattern similar to a very early Grade 1 (no game scenes), Krupp steel barrels with extractors, and low-grade forend. The gun came home with no stock, so the owner fashioned a stock from a lighting struck walnut tree out of his yard. According to the family history the company had no money to pay what their ancestor was owed in salary when the gun works closed, so as compensation offered this former employee this gun as payment. Could yours perhaps be such a gun ? We'll likely never know, but thanks for sharing the information of your SAC; and may you enjoy the heck out of owning that gun!