doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Unsafe gun handling

I attended a side by side sporting clays shoot recently and I observed a number of situations with unsafe gun handling that made me nervous but I chose not to say anything. And I regret that now. So I would like to ask the gentlemen and gentlewomen of this site about their ideas on what is safe gun handling and what to do when safe gun handling procedures are not followed. The following situations have all happened at shoots I have attended:

A squad member has his shotgun broke open over his shoulder with the muzzles pointed behind him as we walk to the next station. Anyone walking behind him is looking right up the muzzle of his shotgun.

A squad member finishes shooting at a station, breaks open his gun and swings it around horizontally, sweeping his entire squad with the muzzle prior to putting the gun up in the rack near the station.

At a 5 stand event, a squad member loads his side by side and tries to close the action. The action doesn't close completely and the shooter struggles to open the action. After a few seconds of struggles, the shooter steps out of the shooting box and swings the loaded gun around as he continues to struggle to open the action while sweeping the shooter in the adjacent station with the muzzle.

At a 5 stand event, I am in squad that is on deck to shoot next. I am watching from behind the third stand. The shooter in the first stand fires his two shots and my eyes are still on him, when a shot is fired by the shooter in the second stand. The shot struck the ground about five yards in front of the second stand. I don't know if the gun fired upon closure or if the elderly shooter had his finger on the trigger early. The second shooter opens his gun, reloads and continues on as if nothing happened.

In all the above situations, I looked around to see if someone was going to say something. Nobody else even acted as if they had observed the problem or were nervous about it. AFter seeing everyone's lack of reaction I chose to remain silent.

As a former USPSA shooter and range officer, any of the above situations would not be tolerated. In fact, in each of the situations the shooter would be stopped and ejected from that day's shoot. Sweeping anybody with the muzzle of your firearm is not tolerated. Accidental discharges are not tolerated. Why do shotgun shooters choose to look the other way?

I'd give the situations you describe a two and two for safety.

The first two events involve a broke open gun and while it is just good manners to be sure your muzzles don't sweep or point at anyone else, the guns were safe as you described.

The second two sound scary as hell to me...Geo

These are my thoughts as well.

You are the one who needs to answer that, seeing as how you did nothing.

In the first two cases, I wouldn't have gotten too upset. You could clearly see the gun was broken open. Not good etiquette, but I wouldn't have said anything about it unless it happened again.

Third case, I would have spoken up immediately. If I got anything but a conciliatory response I would have walked away.

Fourth case, I would have watched him closely to see if there was any more problems with his gun or with him. If so, a gentlemanly word spoken to him about it, again if I didn't receive a humble response, then adios. He did have his gun pointed downrange, as he should.

SRH

I see it exactly as Geo. does, a broke open gun is a safe gun. The other two sound like good reasons to find a new group of guys to shoot with.

I don't see anything wrong with the first two. Agree as to what Geo stated.

The third instance, the shooter should have never left the box with a loaded gun and should have had it pointed down range until problem was fixed.

The last event is a bad one, but if the 5 stand was set up properly, a faulty discharge would be should be away from any other shooters. That is why there are limitations (posts) to your left and right side.

Accidental discharge is exactly that and happens more than we like, but with proper gun handling should not be a problem.

I've found that SxS shoots, charity shoots and other specialty events attract people who have shot very little to no clay targets at a public range. Those of us who shoot all the time and automatically practice safe gun handling forget that what seems obvious to us is not to the casual shooter. I'm usually one of the folks who jump in when I see an obvious safety violation and have made myself unpopular with those who are unsafe. I'd rather someone is upset with me for embarrassing them in front of their friends than have to deliver first aid to a victim of a horrific accident. Or worse, get shot myself. The problems I see all the time are 1) loading a gun while walking up to the shooting stand; 2) stepping out of a stand without breaking the gun open first; 3) after a misfire immediately opening the gun to examine the cartridge - I've seen a hang fire and it's scary; 4) working on a gun/ammo problem with a live round in the chamber and waving the muzzles around; 5) walking between 5 stand stations with a loaded gun and 6) walking around a club with a closed action. I've asked numerous people (dozens) to open their actions at gun clubs and most of these folk were offended. Three times when guns were subsequently opened a live round was in the chamber and the safety off, not that the position of the safety mattered. Sometimes it's hard to enforce safety rules without making the offender look bad, but they could kill someone so we all have to be vigilant.
We could also discuss unsafe target presentations on sporting or 5 stand courses wherein you have to discuss this with the club owner/manager. This does not make you very popular, but I've done it.
Stay safe,
Jeff

All good answers- we must remember- the only safety on a gun we can trust is the one up between our eyeballs- And an open gun with live rounds in the chamber in a group of "rookie clays shooters" is a time bomb waiting a fuse.

While I agree that the first two are more "bad etiquette" than screaming red-flag safety violations, they do bespeak a lack of attention on the part of the guy holding the broken-open gun. Absent-mindedness in one situation means he's more likely to be absent-minded in others. As taught in the courses "always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction".

A quiet word to the guy in situation #1 "hey - I was behind you and, while I could see the gun was broken open, it still made me uncomfortable to have the muzzles pointed in my general direction." If they guy gets on his high horse, I find someone new to shoot with.

Situation #2 seems to be one of the most common safety problems with shotgun sports. People muzzle others, and get muzzled, all the time. I don't like it one bit. Again, absent-mindedness. A quiet word done in the spirit of "praise in public, chew out in private" and see what the reaction is.

Situation #3 is one where someone calling an immediate cease-fire would be well within bounds. The shooter evidently had his concentration on remedying his problem and needed someone shouting to break in on his attention and move it to where his muzzle was pointing.
I'd be reluctant to squad with him.

Situation #4 is tougher. My club has a member who was a PBY pilot and would sometimes wear his "Ford Island" hat (i.e. 12/7/41) while shooting. And he only gave up shooting spring of last year - new girlfriend. He was also the most safe guy there. Not all older guys are so mindful or safe. It's hard to have to have a safety officer alongside all shooters - both from manpower concerns and also out of fear of insulting the shooter. So, checking with the shooter along the lines of blaming the gun - even though he probably knew it was his finger - might be enough. But I'd be watching him like a hawk to see if trigger-finger control was an on-going problem. If it was, I'd move on.

At my club, our watchword is that one accident is enough to close us down, so everyone needs to be extra-safe at all times. So far it's worked.

I think shotgunners look the other way sometimes, because the sometimes the folks that are waving the guns around a little carelessly are the loudest and have the most assertive personalities. I think if the club folks in general let them get away with it, then it's probably better to just move on. Righteous as someone might feel, it's not always practical to cut through the clubs' pecking order. It may not be practical, but still worth trying if someone were up for it.